Bruce Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 In reviewing the Bolshoi Ballet season Louise Levene says towards the end:"Osipova, who joins the perilously under-starred Royal Ballet..." The piece is here:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/dance/10256938/Bolshoi-2013-Starry-heat-bankable-tutus-and-sublime-dancing.htmlAlthough only mentioned in passing I think it an accurate statement - particularly on the men's side.Are others worried too? or is all hunky-dory?For reference here is what I believe to be the current list of RB Principals...Men: Federico Bonelli, Nehemiah Kish, Steven McRae, Rupert Pennefather, Thiago Soares, Edward WatsonWomen: Lauren Cuthbertson, Sarah Lamb, Roberta Marquez, Laura Morera, Marianela Nunez, Zenaida YanowskyTo which some guests are added...Principal Guest Artists: Carlos Acosta, Natalia OsipovaGuest Artist: Matthew Golding?For info the current list on the ROH website reads:"Principals: Carlos Acosta*, Leanne Benjamin, Federico Bonelli, Alina Cojocaru, Lauren Cuthbertson, Mara Galeazzi, Matthew Golding**, Nehemiah Kish, Johan Kobborg, Sarah Lamb, Roberta Marquez, Steven McRae, Laura Morera, Marianela Nuñez, Natalia Osipova**, Rupert Pennefather, Sergei Polunin**, Tamara Rojo**, Thiago Soares, Edward Watson and Zenaida Yanowsky."It's clearly last seasons list and In compliling my list above I took out all the known leavers. I left Golding in, but not clear if he is a Guest or not in 2013/14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Under *staffed* in terms of numbers of Principals I would agree with, particularly given that as a whole, RB has around 30% more dancers than ENB but roughly the same number of Principals. I'd much rather they cracked on and promoted to Principal from within though. And in terms of under-starred, not from my point of view. I go to see RB dancers, in particular Nuñez, Soares, Cuthbertson, Bonelli and Choe. In all honesty I'd rather see them than a guest star. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 well, the Bolshoi didn't seem to have many more at Principal level, but their list of corps de ballet goes on for a week.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Allows the creation of new stars... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 Allows the creation of new stars... Well I'd go along with that if I thought the soloists men were there to be made up to principal level in a world class company. I don't see it - I see them, for the most part, at their correct level. There are some younger ones one has high hopes of, but even if accelerated through they are a few years off the very top. The women's side I'm more comfortable about - at soloist levels there are a healthy number with the potential to go up. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 If any are ready to be created yet ... there's some serious potential there, certainly, but most aren't in a position to be taking on principal roles effectively yet, I think. Kevin O'Hare has gone on record as saying that he thought the company had too many principals anyway, but I wonder whether he still thinks the same in view of June's departures. It only needs one strategically-cast dancer to be injured and the whole casting situation can become very shaky very quickly. I for one am certainly concerned about the situation particularly on the male side, where I think they desperately need more in the way of, well, I won't say danseurs nobles, since they are in such short supply these days, but certainly Princes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A frog Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) I'll agree on the under-starred part (outside of the guests, there are two dancers I would call stars), but not perilously. There are plenty of dancers among principals who are great even if not stars. And it's not like the general public really cares anyway, or to put it another way, how many stars can there be in one company before it ends up making them all non-stars? Edited August 22, 2013 by A frog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Well it would have been nice if the Telegraph had published a photo not only of Miss Smirnova, but of the right production and the correct ballet company. They have put in a photo of Roberta Marquez and the Royal Ballet's production. Sloppy....especially since The Telegraph had privileged access to the Bolshoi the whole duration of their London season. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Well it would have been nice if the Telegraph had published a photo not only of Miss Smirnova, but of the right production and the correct ballet company. They have put in a photo of Roberta Marquez and the Royal Ballet's production. Sloppy....especially since The Telegraph had privileged access to the Bolshoi the whole duration of their London season. Making up for the ROH putting a picture of the Bolshoi on their Bayadere page last season? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) Thanks for this, Bruce. I agree it is in flux. 'Under-starred?' I don't know. I think the real problem - (especially for those who are most primarily content to stand and wave the provincial flag and those numbers here as elsewhere are pretty well fixed in terms of our posted flutterings) - is but - and as ever - a matter of any regime's particular point in time. T’was ever thus. Question is can they answer the long term needs effectively. The problems are created not born. Take NYCB as an example, a company where always the choreographer was - and basically remains – king. Well, the most noted king in that particular chess set. (A return to this for the Royal Ballet O’Hare indicated he wished at his informative LBC chat.) In such a case when you weaken the rooks the board all too easily fails if not entirely falls. NYCB went through a problematic period in the late 90's. It's top rapidly got, as we know can happen, weeded through all too natural wastage. The bottom's corners resolutely hadn't been filled with sufficient strength (or tended to sufficiently?) to feed at a level to which those old enough to remember recalled. Let this go on long enough and the art form will - at that point of havoc - pay a price. The international rank shuffle begins (yet again) its sway. Over promote and the problem only increases. Peter Martins finally had to bring in people from outside on the principal level (like Sofiane Sylve and Gonzalo Garcia) who had both proven themselves on an international scale and appropriately as home team guests. Focusing on strengthening the ranks helped. Suddenly the old celebrated regime were in many instances leading lights now as teachers at the school. The result: Just look at the wealth at the principal level today. STill it took a considerable period of time to right. Don't all companies - both those deemed internationally important and those more provincially rooted – and either choice is absolutely fine in terms of serving the ultimate needs of its audience - go through this as do football teams, both majors and minors? I think they do. I think Kevn O'Hare recognises this dilemma and has, in his own lights, begun to address it effectively.. Blessedly this year he has taken on more at the bottom level than has been the case for a long time. Given current depleted principal ranks - especially with men (and I say that hugely admiring James Hay - but I fear even there physical practicalities must come to realistic bat as much as it does for a certain Ivan Vasiliev - albeit in a different situational configuration) reality can only - in the long term - be dealt with bottom up. God knows the ballet's world has always been a cruel one.). One thing you don't want to do is over-promote ESPECIALLY AT THE PRINCIPAL LEVEL. I agree with Mr. O’Hare: ‘It needs to be deserved.’ Time and the world will help point in this direction. This is where the exchange with ABT can be a practical gift for both leaders; ones often in an all too isolated situation. Affording them and their soloists a greater perspective on an international level - without commitment - can be but all for the good in my book. Kevin McKenzie has entered into another such deal with the RDB. Bravo I say. In another effective sidelight, just yesterday Karen Kain announced at the NBoC that for the next season they would have Svetlana Lukina (Bolshoi before 'the troubles') and Evan Mckie (Canadian at Stuttgart) as guest principals and Matthew Golding (ah, yes, Canada's answer to Brad Pitt much enamored by a certain Ms. Rojo) and Jiri Jelinek (a former NBoC principal now a leader with the Western Australian Ballet) guesting as needs be - and here is a company that looks as we saw fairly recently to have fairly strong ranks at the more junior ranks. Nonetheless she obviously feels they need to grow. Good on her, I say. More power to her very talented arm as much as to Mr. O’Hare’s. Edited August 22, 2013 by Meunier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm365 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I think it is not possible to equate 'Principal' and 'Star'. Many excellent principals are not stars - you have to have an extra, almost indefinable 'something' to be a star. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) I think it is not possible to equate 'Principal' and 'Star'. Many excellent principals are not stars - you have to have an extra, almost indefinable 'something' to be a star. Agreed ... and that is ultimately defined on a world stage. They shine down as t'were. Remember Sutherland talking about 'simply being the vessel and holding firm the beam'. Edited August 22, 2013 by Meunier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 I think it is not possible to equate 'Principal' and 'Star'. Many excellent principals are not stars - you have to have an extra, almost indefinable 'something' to be a star. I think the use of the word 'star' can cloud the issue. My 2p is that RB don't have enough good male principals at the moment - not just numbers but also capability of some who currently have the badge. No one person is going to like all the appointed principles I know, but I go down the list and the abilities (can they act?, are they technically good enough? Have they the height/bearing to be a pukka danseur noble? Do they seem prone to injury? Are they nearing the end of their career? Are they reliable in a role? Can they partner well, etc etc) and I get to the end and don't feel so good as I have in earlier years. It's not all doom and gloom, but the list is not really good enough for a world class company I'd say. The dancers who have left weren't at the bottom of the pile, they were from the top - the overall package of quality goes down. Hiring Osipova is great, but I actually expected to see hiring on the boys side. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Although I understand from interviews that both Benjamin and Galeazzi told O'Hare at or around the beginning of last season that they would be leaving, so the need for a female principal may have seemed more pressing at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MargaretN7 Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 We each have our own likes / opinions, but for me the RB has, in (alphabetical order) Bonelli, Kish, Pennefather, three excellent danseur noble. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Always difficult to define the word 'star' in the context of a ballet company, Carlos Acosta is undoubtedly a star, so perhaps we should be asking who else in the RB could pack them in at the Coli for a week - with the Bolshoi dancing at the ROH at the same time. Cojocaru might have done it and probably Osipova could, but anone else? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl H Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I think there is a difference between Principal and Star (or Etoile, thank goodness the RB doesn't have this, think of the arguments), they have recently lost world-class Stars such as Cojocaru, Kobborg, Rojo and Polunin, and gained one, Osipova, so yes I think they are under-starred, especially on the male side. The Bolshoi seems to have a wonderful number of soloists that look destined to become Principals, compared to the RB. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I agree that even the most accomplished Principal dancer is not necessarily a star. There are only a few worldwide in each generation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Going a little off topic, can I say how much I disliked the original article and in particular the rudeness towards Nikolai Tsiskaridze. In general I don't think this Bolshoi season was as successful as previous ones. It was clever to end on a high, but apart from Jewels, there was little excitement in the frankly dull productions of the classics. And no, a star certainly was not born with Olga Smirnova's London debut and I find it disquieting that the UK critic's were either blind to her obvious technical defects or chose to ignore them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamk Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 I think the use of the word 'star' can cloud the issue. My 2p is that RB don't have enough good male principals at the moment - not just numbers but also capability of some who currently have the badge. No one person is going to like all the appointed principles I know, but I go down the list and the abilities (can they act?, are they technically good enough? Have they the height/bearing to be a pukka danseur noble? Do they seem prone to injury? Are they nearing the end of their career? Are they reliable in a role? Can they partner well, etc etc) and I get to the end and don't feel so good as I have in earlier years. It's not all doom and gloom, but the list is not really good enough for a world class company I'd say. The dancers who have left weren't at the bottom of the pile, they were from the top - the overall package of quality goes down. Hiring Osipova is great, but I actually expected to see hiring on the boys side. I agree with you Bruce athough I feel even more gloomy than you and think that barring a few obvious exceptions the line up on the female side doesn't look so wonderful either. Disappointingly, also there isn't a single compelling partnership - I mean where the man and the woman are equals. All of this highlighted by the wonderful Bolshoi dancers Going a little off topic, can I say how much I disliked the original article and in particular the rudeness towards Nikolai Tsiskaridze. In general I don't think this Bolshoi season was as successful as previous ones. It was clever to end on a high, but apart from Jewels, there was little excitement in the frankly dull productions of the classics. And no, a star certainly was not born with Olga Smirnova's London debut and I find it disquieting that the UK critic's were either blind to her obvious technical defects or chose to ignore them. Swan Lake was dull yes but not Bayadere or Sleeping Beauty. Anyway, the excitement was in having the opportunity to see wonderful dancers throughout the company. Really, all of them blind ? Well me too then because I loved Olga Smirnova's performances - particularly in Diamonds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) We each have our own likes / opinions, but for me the RB has, in (alphabetical order) Bonelli, Kish, Pennefather, three excellent danseur noble. Agree with this. I thought danseur noble/ prince dancers was what the RB had a lot of, as opposed to the virtuoso, dazzling dancers needed for something like Don Q. Don't agree about the lack of 'stars'. Edited August 22, 2013 by chrischris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTL Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 (edited) To repeat a point I made on another thread, maternity leave is a fact of life for modern dancers and most of the RB principal ladies are of an age where this could be relevant. Moreover, Zenaida Yanowsky is already relinquishing some roles. Add possible injuries to that and I can easily see the RB having to draw on soloists or guests. (Edited for typo) Edited August 22, 2013 by Grand Tier Left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 What exactly is a 'star' in ballet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Swan Lake was dull yes but not Bayadere or Sleeping Beauty. Anyway, the excitement was in having the opportunity to see wonderful dancers throughout the company. I quite enjoyed Bayadere, but Sleeping Beauty was indeed pretty dull - no, not dull in costumes scenery - just boring. No story told at all it seemed to me - and as its pretty thin anyway, it ended up as Beauty the diverts. The hatchet job on a lot of the music didn't help either. I tried (and failed) to cancel my order for the blu-ray (anyone want my copy?). Enjoyed Jewels (apart from the Monday Rubies, which was a flat as Holland), and loved Flames 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneMarriott Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 Going a little off topic, can I say how much I disliked the original article and in particular the rudeness towards Nikolai Tsiskaridze. Well I'm not sure Tsiskaridze deserves any more deference than any other dancer, and he was described as a megastar, amongst other less flattering epithets. And I don't think his coveting of Filin's job is exactly a state secret. Other Bolshoi dancers who have been praised by the critics have been described on this website as "expressionless contortionists". Now THAT's rude! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMballet Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I've another gossipy question, somewhat on the subject of "stars" v principals, arising from a throwaway line from the same article: is that true, that Zakharova was supposed to have danced Diamonds but pulled out at the last minute because of Volchkov's injury, thus leaving the role to Smirnova? What? How? She just took off back to Moscow because Volchkov was injured?? That makes no sense to me. Is it true, or are there "wheels behind wheels" ? How can that be allowed? And anyway wasn't Smirnova groomed by Filin et al for her star-making turn in Diamonds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 This is a bit too speculative SMBallet and is going way off topic. Everyone, can we please try and get back to the subject of "Royal Ballet perilously under-starred"? Do we need individual stars or is the Company the star? If I am visiting somewhere new I look to see if there are any companies based/appearing there, not to see which star is dancing there. Does this only matter to serious ballet fans? Are individual stars a way of hooking in newbies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 Do we need individual stars or is the Company the star? If I am visiting somewhere new I look to see if there are any companies based/appearing there, not to see which star is dancing there. Does this only matter to serious ballet fans? Are individual stars a way of hooking in newbies? Agree about getting back on topic and all fine things to discuss. And Levene did use the 'starred' word for sure. But I think the bigger issue is not stars as such but if the number and capabilities of principals is good enough for a leading international classical ballet company? I've not spoken to Levene, but when its comes up with others the concern has not been expressed as lack of stars but lack of overall dancer 'punch' from the roster presented - most particularly on the mens side. There are just 6 full-time principal men and running them through the sieve of capabilities I mentioned earlier is salutary - imho etc. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) Agree about getting back on topic and all fine things to discuss. And Levene did use the 'starred' word for sure. But I think the bigger issue is not stars as such but if the number and capabilities of principals is good enough for a leading international classical ballet company? I've not spoken to Levene, but when its comes up with others the concern has not been expressed as lack of stars but lack of overall dancer 'punch' from the roster presented - most particularly on the mens side. There are just 6 full-time principal men and running them through the sieve of capabilities I mentioned earlier is salutary - imho etc. Maybe it's because I haven't seen many other companies, but I find the RB male principal's all pretty impressive in their own way. Watson- always surprises me he is a ballet dancer and not a contemporary dancer, but extraordinary in modern work, a great partner, expressive actor and excellent interpreter of Macmillan ballets. Avoids the ballets he isn't good in so obviously versatility is an issue. Soares- great technique, very charismatic, good in both classic and modern work, great partner, great actor, not injured much and great partnership with Nunez. Mcrae- Awesome dancer, versatile, though perhaps not suited to classic danseur noble roles, virtuoso performer, lots of energy, great stage presence, unusual physicality for a dancer makes his interpretations really interesting (for me) Bonelli- Great danseur noble, technically very strong, great partner, best (IMO) in classic roles but also excels in Mcgregor ballets Pennefather- Classic danseur noble, tall, great partner, strong technique, really suits the romantic leads, quite a reserved stage presence, not really seen much in modern works but fantastic in Macmillan ballets. Kish- Haven't seen him much but again, great classical danseur noble, sensitive partner, tall, not very injury prone. And then there's Acosta. To me, they are all great dancers who I would happily see. Maybe I would feel differently if I had seen more companies, or seen previous generations, but I don;t feel they lack punch, and having been a bit underwhelmed by the Bolshoi guest stars the other night, i think I appreciate their understated RB style even more. Edited August 23, 2013 by chrischris 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl H Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think the RB strongly favours the tall, danseur noble type of male principal with good partnering over charisma and technique,rightly or wrongly I don't know, but it would be good to balance it up a bit, apart from Carlos Acosta who will be a strong enough partner for Natalia Osipova? Steven McRae is an exception, he can do everything, I think he is an excellent danseur noble when required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) Maybe I would feel differently if I had seen more companies, or seen previous generations Thank you for the sincerity of your posting chrischris. One feels you wanting to reach out in this an obviously early point in your ballet-going. It is heartening. Bless you. I, myself, think that variety and time does change things greatly. Certainly it did for me. I know that had I not lived (and learned) though that fairly unique period and world scale known as the 'dance boom' my own perspectives would have been very different and certainly much more limited. (Without question were it not for that reason I very much think that I would be less inclined to side with Bruce on this particular forum than I most definitely am.) It is, of course, the variety of exposure that frames our perspectives. I would encourage you to spread your net as far as possible in building the circumference of reference in your own 'danseur' portfolio. It can make, I promise, for a heady diet and deliver substantial returns. (Blessedly the Bank of England of not responsible for setting rates there!!) I realise, of course, this can be a tad awkward in these 'difficult' times but it is certainly worth the effort from my experience and one can learn so much through the cultural travel. 'If the mountain won't come to Mohammed ... ' and all that. In my own youth I was driven. (That's the time to do it who will be a strong enough partner for Natalia Osipova? Steven McRae is an exception, he can do everything, I think he is an excellent danseur noble when required. I agree McRae is a strong dancer - even agree he is the strongest overall in terms of the current RB crop. That said ... he has not always shown himself to be the best at partnering in my experience. That makes such a key difference in oh, so many of the works danced in the Royal's rep ... certainly the Ashton. Edward Watson is, to my lights, the most valuable to the Royal as he is the most unique in terms of fulfilling the needs of the Royal's key creative force, Wayne McGregor, e.g., he whose style is now forming the primary shape of the overall RB look in ALL (and I say that in a complimentary mode. There are all too many all too shapeless ballet companies nowadays.) This for my lights - like it or not - is the shape of today's Royal Ballet. I applaud Mr. McGregor's and the Royal Ballet's courage in this commitment. (Again, it is your choice as to whether or not you wish to take it or leave it .... but, as my mother used to put it, 'at least there's something there to hate!') Osipova REALLY has shown she CAN do it all and that is key ... e.g., has shown that potential in a wide variety of frames. For my money there are very few dancers on the world stage who could match that potential in an equal measure ... which is why she is such a great catch. [This is where her and Vasiliev's departure from the Bolshoi really HAS paid off.] (Osipova's listed as Royal principal now isn't she? ... not as a 'guest principal' ... or am I and a few of the press representations wrong?) At the risk of sounding boring, one of that rare breed on the INTERNATIONAL dancing male scale who could match that (e.g., the Ashton as well as the McGregor, say) would be Leonid Sarafanov .... oh, and they have danced together very successfully on any number of occasions. We saw them together in the cinema broadcast - that first ghastly (sorry, blurred) 3D attempt - at Giselle by the Mariinsky. Would love to see them together in Month in the Country as much as I would love to see them in Qualia. Edited August 24, 2013 by Meunier 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I think the RB strongly favours the tall, danseur noble type of male principal with good partnering over charisma and technique,rightly or wrongly I don't know, but it would be good to balance it up a bit, apart from Carlos Acosta who will be a strong enough partner for Natalia Osipova? Well, I think that will depend on how Osipova turns out in RB rep. And do you mean "strong" in terms of physically, or powerful enough not to be ... eclipsed by her, so to speak? In some of the dramatic rep, she might work well with Watson - or they might turn out to be a poor fit, or anything in between. Going back to the subject of real danseurs nobles, I think the RB has dancers who do those roles perfectly well enough, but nobody that I'd regard as a true danseur noble. But then, I thought the last one of those we had in the UK was ENB's Thomas Edur. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrischris Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 Was Jonathan Cope considered a danseur noble? I've only ever seen a couple of youtube clips of him dancing with Bussell. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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