Joseph Sissens interview in The Guardian

[Richard LH]

In this piece (in today’s Links) Lyndsey Winship refers to Joseph Sissens challenging “the underlying racism that has been long embedded in ballet culture and institutions”. Less directly perhaps (and he gives no obvious examples ) Sissens himself seems to imply that there is a racism problem, for example “he feels a responsibility to look out for younger dancers of colour coming up in the industry” ……he says “You see someone with a similar experience and you take care of them”. 

He also describes Tring Park, where he gained a scholarship at age 8, as “a world of gross privilege”.

I am wondering if these characterisations of the culture within ballet/dance  institutions are fair, or somewhat  tired and outdated?  

[balletfanatic]

Aren't lots of students at Tring and similar schools on scholarships or bursaries. I don't see that as gross privilege. Isn't that giving a chance to children who don't have the funds to pay private fees for this specialist education. The privilege is more to do with that fact they are living their dream but you could say that about any specialist school eg a football academy.  

[Sophoife]

I see it as Sissens experiencing something at Tring, through his abilities and talents, that was so far outside his life experience and home situation that it seemed like "gross privilege". I bet the interview transcript would elaborate, sadly there's not enough space given for a full transcript in newspapers these days.

[art_enthusiast]

Yep - I think it’s more like the surroundings are an example of gross privilege, given that it used to be a private house or whatever 

[Fonty]

it would have been better if he had come up with some concrete examples of racism.  Merely being in the minority doesn't really count, I would have thought, given that the vast majority of people in the UK (90+ % I believe?) are white. 

 

Having read the article, I get the impression that he felt it was a problem that nobody was familiar with how to do cornrows in hair.  And he was very proud of the fact that he had a wig made for the Prince in the Nutcracker that depicted this.  While I find the idea of the Prince having cornrows quite amusing, I wouldn't have thought it was an obligatory hairstyle for non white males!

[MAB]

H

4 minutes ago, Fonty said:

it would have been better if he had come up with some concrete examples of racism.

 

Well you can start with the fact that at a time when black opera singers were featured at ROH in leading roles,  black dancers were not in evidence in any roles. 

 

In the 1980's I worked with the black American dancer William Louther, best known as a founder member of LCDT, but also a former student of Antony Tudor and at that time I met black dancers with excellent classical techniques but unlikely to even be considered for the back row of the corps.  Festival Ballet were a little more open minded as I can remember Kevin Pugh guesting with them as far back as the 70's.  Things are changing now but i have no doubt a career in ballet is harder to achieve if you are black than if you are white.

[Richard LH]

3 hours ago, Sophoife said:

I see it as Sissens experiencing something at Tring, through his abilities and talents, that was so far outside his life experience and home situation that it seemed like "gross privilege". I bet the interview transcript would elaborate, sadly there's not enough space given for a full transcript in newspapers these days.

 

2 hours ago, art_enthusiast said:

Yep - I think it’s more like the surroundings are an example of gross privilege, given that it used to be a private house or whatever 

Maybe but I do think he is going futher than referring to a childhood impression,  or just the physical surroundings, in describing life at Tring as a world of "gross" and "ultimate" privilege, without further qualification.

 

I rather feel his own progression in getting to Tring  and succeeding in ballet to the point of becoming a Principal at the RB, at 26,  rather belies the thrust of the interview....at least, as @Fonty suggests, without giving any concrete  examples of institutional racism experienced during his career to date. So I am quite surprised that he is now defining himself in this  "activist" role.

Edited Wednesday at 15:25 by Richard LH

[Fonty]

16 minutes ago, MAB said:

H

 

Well you can start with the fact that at a time when black opera singers were featured at ROH in leading roles,  black dancers were not in evidence in any roles. 

 

In the 1980's I worked with the black American dancer William Louther, best known as a founder member of LCDT, but also a former student of Antony Tudor and at that time I met black dancers with excellent classical techniques but unlikely to even be considered for the back row of the corps.  Festival Ballet were a little more open minded as I can remember Kevin Pugh guesting with them as far back as the 70's.  Things are changing now but i have no doubt a career in ballet is harder to achieve if you are black than if you are white.

 

 

A ballet career is hard to achieve, no matter what colour you happen to be.   No matter how good your technique is, if you don't match up to the very specific physical type they prefer, then you won't get in. Add to that the fact that, as I said, the proportion of non white people in the UK is about 10% in total, and I am not surprised that there are very few black dancers around.  Plus, how popular is ballet amongst youngsters, especially those who aren't white.  It is noticeable that football clubs team with black players.  Maybe black females prefer to go into sport too, rather than dance. 

 

Carlos Acosta not only had brilliant technique and a good physique, he also came from a country where ballet was very popular, with excellent schools available.  I would think that a black girl with the same physique as Darcey Bussell and a great technique would have no problem getting in to a major company. 

[Anna C]

4 hours ago, balletfanatic said:

Aren't lots of students at Tring and similar schools on scholarships or bursaries.

Not aged 8, I don’t think.  MDS (Music and Dance Scheme) funding doesn’t begin until Year 7, so I believe that most prep school students at Tring (years 4-6) when Sissens was there were privately funded (and very possibly he would have been one of/the only black or brown pupils in the Prep school at the time).
 

I wonder if he sees Tring at that time in the same way that many people have historically viewed Oxbridge - as a place of privilege, populated by a high proportion of privately educated white students from wealthy families? 
 

But as readers, we cannot know whether Joe’s words have been edited/paraphrased/interpreted differently, or if he said those words, because that was his lived experience?  Either way, I don’t think it’s up to us to be asking for “concrete evidence”.  I can’t now provide concrete evidence of having been bullied at school, for example - doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

 

[Jan McNulty]

Racism is in the eye of the beholder.   Perhaps Joseph Sissens felt he was being discriminated against in some way while the people he felt were discriminating against him had no idea that was how he felt or why he felt like that.

 

If we, as individuals, haven't experienced what we perceive to be racism then how can we know how he feels or what he is trying to describe.  Don't forget that the interview will have been edited too.

[Anna C]

2 hours ago, Fonty said:

Having read the article, I get the impression that he felt it was a problem that nobody was familiar with how to do cornrows in hair.  And he was very proud of the fact that he had a wig made for the Prince in the Nutcracker that depicted this.  While I find the idea of the Prince having cornrows quite amusing, I wouldn't have thought it was an obligatory hairstyle for non white males!

Cornrows are culturally and historically important, as well as a form of self-expression.  I remember when Sir Lewis Hamilton arrived at the start of a Formula 1 season wearing cornrows for the first time; it felt significant, especially with him being the only black F1 driver.   If I remember rightly, Sissens didn’t appear onstage with cornrows until a few years ago (was it post lockdown?) and I wondered then if he had felt up until that point that he had to have a more generic hairstyle?  
 

In any case, I love that Sissens’s Prince has a wig with cornrows (not least because getting that glitter out of one’s hair must be a nightmare - far easier to unpin a wig).

[munchkin16]

I think it’s also very easy to assume that racism must be big obvious actions of discrimination. Micro-aggressions can be indiscernible to an outsider looking in but can take a real toll over the years. Not saying this was the case with Joseph but just wanted to raise the point that unless you’ve lived those experiences we can’t speak to the effect years of being made to feel like an outsider can take. 

The small things add up over the years and can be exhausting. 

For example, suitable hair and make up provision is still a big issue with black and brown actors in film and television. Many have to continually advocate for their basic hair and make up needs to be met on set, alongside doing their job. That’s an additional burden their peers do not have to take on.

[Richard LH]

2 hours ago, Anna C said:

I don’t think it’s up to us to be asking for “concrete evidence”.  I can’t now provide concrete evidence of having been bullied at school, for example - doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Likewise, as it happens, but here I don't think it's a question of "evidence" as such,  so much as simply  examples of the sort of racist behaviour  or attitudes that Sissens seems to be implying within the organisations he has been in....including the current RB.  I feel public accusations of  racism deserve rather more background and support  than the rather vague assertions found in the article,  given the potential impact on those organisations and the individuals within them. 

Edited Wednesday at 18:05 by Richard LH

[Emeralds]

By the way, I'm coming from another point of view (I'm not Black) but I just want to say that I am very grateful and thrilled that Joseph Sissens wanted to wear cornrows and did so in various  roles in The Nutcracker.  That was a giant step of progress for both Black dancers and audiences as well as other ethnic minority dancers and audiences.  Thank you Joseph!

Edited Wednesday at 18:09 by Emeralds

[Richard LH]

30 minutes ago, munchkin16 said:

 

For example, suitable hair and make up provision is still a big issue with black and brown actors in film and television. 

Maybe but, where evident, are such issues (including the cornrow one)  truly examples of "racism" as opposed to lack of proper understanding of what particular individuals may want, and a need for suitable communication? Plus, in drama, and ballet,  there is also consideration of the need for a degree of conformity at times, and it may not always be considered appropriate to the production, and its setting or period, for an individual to choose their own hairstyle. Hence the widespread use of wigs!

[CCL]

I obviously can’t speak for Sissens and please don’t think I’m trying to, but I interpreted his comment regarding ‘looking after’ younger dancers of colour as an act of kindness and solidarity, having possibly been aware of bias, conscious or unconscious, when he was a younger dancer and perhaps feeling unable at the time to share his feelings with (m)any other dancers. An example could be the fact that dancers had to fight long and hard for the acceptance of tights and shoes which matched individual skin tones. I read the interview and in my opinion what he was saying did not seem particularly controversial. 

[art_enthusiast]

3 hours ago, Fonty said:

I would think that a black girl with the same physique as Darcey Bussell and a great technique would have no problem getting in to a major company. 

Erm… well if you’ve read Michaela dePrince’s book, she had a hard time being hired initially when she wasn’t kept with ABT after attending their school. And she certainly had great talent and physique, but was rejected in a lot of auditions at first.
 

She also described growing up without the flesh coloured pointe shoes that are available more widely now (she painted them herself) and all the horrible comments and racist remarks she got growing up in the ballet world, from fellow students’ parents and teachers. And she was only 3 years older than Sissens is I think, so stands to reason he may have been exposed to similar things.

 

I’m not black so not qualified to speak on this (I’m a different mixed ethnicity), but the pressure to repress natural hair has been a thing for a very long time, and wearing it in the style they want is very important, it demonstrates freedom. With ballet having the very uniform, slicked back look, having different cultural styles introduced especially on the ROH stage is huge. I first saw Joseph with the dreadlocks in 2021’s Dante Project, don’t think he had them before then, and it was amazing to see. It also made a big impact on my friend’s 9 year old niece when she saw him with them in Light of Passage.

[maryrosesatonapin]

On the whole I enjoyed the article, but having had an article about myself published in the Guardian some years ago I know how they edit it to enhance the drama - not necessarily changing the truth, just tweaking so that certain things stand out. I am sure all newspapers do this, some to a criminal extent.

The only thing that Sissens said that I didn't like was “I’m one of six dancers of colour in the Royal Ballet. If no one else is going to do it, it has to be me.”

 

To me, that sounded as though he was almost blaming the other non-white dancers in the troupe for not being activists, which is unfair on them. But again, maybe it is quoted out of context, or perhaps I am misunderstanding.

 

[Dawnstar]

1 hour ago, maryrosesatonapin said:

The only thing that Sissens said that I didn't like was “I’m one of six dancers of colour in the Royal Ballet. If no one else is going to do it, it has to be me.”

 

I was confused by this sentence whe I read the article yesterday. I thought the phrase "people of colour" was used to refer to anyone who is not white. However there are obviously far more than 6 non-white dancers in the RB given there are at least a dozen Japanese/Korean/Chinese dancers for starters. So does the phrase actually only refer to black people?

[art_enthusiast]

26 minutes ago, Dawnstar said:

So does the phrase actually only refer to black people?

This whole question of phrases belonging to certain groups definitely gets confusing. For me, I thought person of colour refers to all those with colour, so black, also Indian/Flipino etc, and others of mixed heritage. As a mixed Indian and white person, I think of myself as a PoC and have been referred to as such (though it can depend on the context I’m in).

 

If we take colour to mean more melanin in the skin it may not apply to the Japanese/Korean/Chinese dancers who are less likely to undergo skin colour discrimination - potentially other types of racism but not the type that includes insults to one’s skin colour. But I’m definitely not an expert here, this is just speculation.

[ctas]

11 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Maybe but, where evident, are such issues (including the cornrow one)  truly examples of "racism" as opposed to lack of proper understanding of what particular individuals may want, and a need for suitable communication? Plus, in drama, and ballet,  there is also consideration of the need for a degree of conformity at times, and it may not always be considered appropriate to the production, and its setting or period, for an individual to choose their own hairstyle. Hence the widespread use of wigs!

To follow on from what you’ve said - that lack of proper understanding understanding is born of a historic lack of knowledge and care and listening, which is rooted in racism. An “othering” of people who don’t conform to the degree you mention, a norm that wasn’t inclusive. Challenging historic norms that were put in place by one demographic and aren’t inclusive is a good thing to give a wider perspective of art and culture.
 

Trying to put yourself into someone else’s (ballet) shoes can’t be a bad thing in my eyes. It sounds like Legacy is intended to be a celebration and it sounds lovely. 

[bridiem]

In any setting, a 'norm' is never going to be 100% inclusive because there are always going to be people who for whatever reason/s fall outside the norm. That doesn't mean that there is necessarily any sort of -ism going on; it's just the way groups and societies function. An effort to include those who don't fall within the 'norm' is good (if, of course, they want to be included). But to continually emphasize what makes or made them in any way different seems to be to defeat the object.

[Richard LH]

12 minutes ago, ctas said:

An “othering” of people who don’t conform to the degree you mention, a norm that wasn’t inclusive. Challenging historic norms that were put in place by one demographic and aren’t inclusive is a good thing to give a wider perspective of art and culture.

It's good that ballet in general appears pretty "inclusive" these days,  if you mean including  people of any ethnic background.....for example look at the RB's variety in this regard, as @Dawnstar mentions.

But  I was not referring to conformity in terms of ethnicity, simply the demands and context of the staging of particular productions and what makes visual sense, particularly with groups of dancers that are supposed to be dressed in the same way. So regarding ballet's historic norms, some adaptations may be fine, others not so much.

On your earlier point, I would challenge your suggestion that having a lack of understanding of all the various aspects of other cultures is tantamount to racism, if that is what you mean.

 

[Richard LH]

27 minutes ago, bridiem said:

But to continually emphasize what makes or made them in any way different seems to be to defeat the object.

Exactly....I think that is what really concerns me with this interview....along with the allegations of "racism". 

Edited Thursday at 07:18 by Richard LH

[Anna C]

3 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Exactly....I think that is what really concerns me with this interview....along with the allegations of "racism". 

IIRC, the word “racism” was not a direct quote from Sissens, but a sentence written by Winship.  Joe himself mentioned “microaggressions”, and again, to dispute that he as a black person has been and, from what he’s said, is still is on the receiving end of microaggressions is to deny his lived experience - it is not our place to do that to anyone else, especially someone from a minority community.
 

As a disabled person I’ve been subject to discrimination and what could be called microaggressions, but it’s my right to be able to point these out without being subject to doubt, disbelief or scrutiny by non-disabled people.
 

Things are slow to change in the ballet world; those of us who have been through the system/had children in the system know that.  Are things easier now for black dancers?  I think they’re getting there slowly.  Improvements like the availability of brown tights and ballet/pointe shoes are great but fairly recent in the UK, and even they have been subject to negativity by some ballet fans when worn onstage by members of the corps.  That’s something that white dancers aren’t subject to, and it’s exactly that difference that Sissens et al refer to.

 

I’m really struggling to understand why the interview would be concerning, disappointing, or indeed cause any similar emotion in us as ballet fans? It doesn’t affect us personally.  

[DD Driver]

Sissons has every right to voice his opinions and to share his recollections of his time at Tring, RBS & The Royal Ballet.

We are interested to hear about it!

 

Similarly, short of incitement, fraud or defamation, people have the right to express their response and different perspectives.

Freedom of Speech doesn't protect speech you like; it protects speech you don't like. (Larry Flynt)

[Richard LH]

51 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

Similarly, short of incitement, fraud or defamation, people have the right to express their response and different perspectives.

Freedom of Speech doesn't protect speech you like; it protects speech you don't like. (Larry Flynt)

 

2 hours ago, Anna C said:

Joe himself mentioned “microaggressions”, and again, to dispute that he as a black person has been and, from what he’s said, is still is on the receiving end of microaggressions is to deny his lived experience - it is not our place to do that to anyone else, especially someone from a minority community.

If Sissens is publicly saying, through  the rather coded way that this is expressed in the article, that he is experiencing racism at the RB,  I don't think it's disrespectful or insensitive to question what he means. It would be awful if he is right but on the other hand it would be awful if such charges are being made simply because of misinterpretation of  context or motivation. Either way surely  clarification would help....the vague import of the article as it stands doesn't seem to achieve much except to cast an unhealthy shadow.

[Fonty]

3 hours ago, Anna C said:

Things are slow to change in the ballet world; those of us who have been through the system/had children in the system know that.  Are things easier now for black dancers?  I think they’re getting there slowly.  Improvements like the availability of brown tights and ballet/pointe shoes are great but fairly recent in the UK, and even they have been subject to negativity by some ballet fans when worn onstage by members of the corps.  That’s something that white dancers aren’t subject to, and it’s exactly that difference that Sissens et al refer to.

 

 

 

Highlighting the above point, I freely admit that I am one of the people who has complained about this.  Fine if the dancer is appearing as an individual in a crowd scene, but not when they are, for example,  one of the Willis in Giselle.  It doesn't bother me in the slightest that some of dancers may be black.  All the faces are unique, no matter what their skin tone.  However, In that situation, with the emphasis very much on the legs and feet, I want to see all the dancers wearing exactly the same tights and shoes. 

Otherwise I find it distracting and irritating.  And yet again I would point out that no female on the planet has the same skin colour as the traditional pale pink tights and ballet shoes.  Not that I have ever seen, anyway. 

 

With regard to the wig with cornrows, it sounds rather fun, but given that the prince in the Nutcracker wears a crown, how visible is the wig anyway?  If Sissens can have cornrows, surely some of the ladies with darker colouring could request a wig that is more flattering than those ghastly pale objects they get saddled with?

[Anna C]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

Otherwise I find it distracting and irritating.  And yet again I would point out that no female on the planet has the same skin colour as the traditional pale pink tights and ballet shoes.  Not that I have ever seen, anyway. 

Without wishing to be rude, that sounds like a You Problem.  The whole point(e) of pale pink tights and matching pointe shoes, as I’m sure you know, is to extend the length and line of the ballerina’s legs and feet.  And although “ballet pink” is not an actual matching skin shade, it’s close enough and matches the rest of the dancer’s body well enough so that there is not a marked contrast between the ballerina’s legs & feet, and face/neck/shoulders and arms - assuming that she has pale skin.

 

When ballet students are young, they wear pale pink socks and matching ballet flats for the same reason; to extend the line of the leg and foot.  On children with black and brown skin, it has the opposite effect.  Thankfully, in recent years, brown socks, tights, and shoes have become available, and can be worn in exams as well as class.  So everyone can have “skin tone” leg and footwear.

 

With regards to the Wilis in Giselle, yes, they wear ghostly white tutus, but they were human girls (ie not swans), so there is no good reason for all their legs and feet to be pale pink.  And with the wigs, thankfully things ARE changing - in the most recent run of The Dream, Naghdi was able to wear her own lovely black hair (or a matching wig), instead of that unflattering and brassy blonde wig that all the Titanias had to wear previously.  Likewise, Marcelino Sambé had the lilac glitter in his own dark hair as the Nutcracker Prince last year (Jonathan Cope and Miyako Yoshida et al did the same years ago) as opposed to the pale blonde that became universal, regardless of the dancer’s skin tone.

 

But look.  Shouldn’t every dancer - especially little ones - deserve to feel that they look their best?  That they are represented, not just by dancewear manufacturers, but also onstage?  Surely that’s what it’s all about?  Inspiring the future generations of dancers?

[Fonty]

I think you are missing the point I was making, @Anna C  I have no problem with dancers wearing different shades of tights on stage when they are just individuals, or if they are dancing solos.  But in scenes where the corps move as one, then I want their legs and feet to match.  I don't care if they are wearing pink, white, pale beige, or any other colour.  But I want them all the same.   If everyone starts wearing different coloured tights and shoes to match their own skin tone, of which there are many in the RB corps, then it starts to look messy.  It spoils the magic for me.  I don't see this as my "problem".  I see it as my opinion, which I have expressed politely and which I see as a valid one.  If you disagree with me, fine. But please don't make it seem as though there is something wrong with me for thinking this in the first place. 

 

incidentally, as a child I didn't wear tights of any colour.  Bare legs, white ankle socks and black ballet shoes were the regulation uniform at my ballet classes.  Even at vocational school, I think it was mid teens before both the boys and the girls wore tights.  Black for the boys, pink for the girls.

Edited Thursday at 18:07 by Fonty

[Pas de Quatre]

I must say I think it depends on the role. Act 1 Giselle, yes tights and shoes to match flesh. Act 2 pale pink. In a recent RB recording when the Willis stand in line a d light comes from above, the dancer (I think it was Marianna Tsenbenhoi) wearing darker tights appeared to have no legs or feet as they were shadowed by the tutu.

[Emeralds]

Could it have been Alix van Tiggelen with the darker tights, @Pas de Quatre ? I think Marianna Tsembenhoi wore the pale tights and pink shoes while Alix had dark tights and shoes, if it's the recent Giselle in the 2021-2022 season. 

[Emeralds]

23 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

 

I was confused by this sentence whe I read the article yesterday. I thought the phrase "people of colour" was used to refer to anyone who is not white. However there are obviously far more than 6 non-white dancers in the RB given there are at least a dozen Japanese/Korean/Chinese dancers for starters. So does the phrase actually only refer to black people?

The phrase can be problematic. It is generally used to refer to anyone not white. It is also considered by many to be offensive/not wise/not polite to use it nowadays. However, if someone uses it to refer to themselves I suppose that's OK. 

 

In that context I'm surprised to see it in the article. It sounds like Joseph means Black dancers as that would be the number that matches that description, while there would be more than double if the term was really what was meant. 

 

I don't like the term myself although I don't have a problem with it being used if the subtext is a kind or neutral one rather than a derogatory one. 

 

On 25/09/2024 at 16:28, Fonty said:

Add to that the fact that, as I said, the proportion of non white people in the UK is about 10% in total, and I am not surprised that there are very few black dancers around.  Plus, how popular is ballet amongst youngsters, especially those who aren't white.  

Fonty, I think nowadays and certainly for the last 10 years or more, the leadership of RB, ENB, BRB, NB and SB would say they don't represent only the UK but the world. They recruit dancers from all over the world who are willing to apply, and they also commission choreographers from around the world.

 

The non-white population in the UK is 17%.

 

When ballet (and any other kind of hobby or activity such as drama, music, sport) is presented in a welcoming and inclusive fashion to all children, they will join in enthusiastically. I've seen this in many groups. But representation is important. If children don't see people who look similar to them participating and instead of receiving encouragement like Sissens did, are told or strongly hinted that people "like them" will not be interested/not be any good at/not be able to afford the funds to continue pursuing that activity, they don't return. 

Edited Thursday at 21:56 by Emeralds