BRB2

[Chira]

I was just curious to find out how many dancers graduating from Elmhurst go on into BRB2 or even the full company?

 

I ask because I noticed today the selection from this years graduates and none are from Elmhurst. 
 

I might also be mistaken in that BRB is not a feeder company for Elmhurst. 
 

 

[Jan McNulty]

Probably best to ask Carlos Acosta!

[LinMM]

I think the first cohort were nearly all students from the Royal Ballet School as far as I remember. So I don’t think Elmhurst currently can actually be any kind of “feeder school” for BRB or BRB2 Companies. 

[Raquelle]

I think Sophie Walters (last years apprentice) went into BRB2....the previous apprentices (Olivia, Hannah Martin, Amelia...can't remember surname sorry.... Are in the company I believe). But yes seems like there are many more RBS students in BRB 2 and the BRB company than Elmhurst x 

[Swanwings]

I dont think Elmhurst is a feeder school for BRB, I dont think its ever been classed as this....happy to be wrong... It does have an 'association' with the company. Students in 3rd yr upper school sometimes have the chance to do class with the company, the whole school get invited to rehearsals, and sometimes get the chance to perform with them. There may be more I'm not sure.

 

BRB have an agreement to take on 1 graduate per year as an apprentice, so far they have all been kept on as artists I believe, but that seems to be all. 

[dancefanatic]

Before Carlos Acosta took over the role of Artistic Director, there was a much closer association with the school.  US students, particular Graduate year, got regular opportunities to perform with the company and most years at least 1 full contract was awarded.  A few years ago an Elmhurst benefactor, together with the school and David Bintley, set up the BRB Elmhurst apprenticeship scheme with the benefactor's funds effectively being a bursary to pay for an Elmhurst graduate to be an apprentice at the company.  The first recipient of this did not get a full-time contract awarded after her apprentice year was up, however all recipients since then have.  Since Carlos Acosta came in, the company have offered fewer and fewer performance opportunities to the students including my DD's grad year last year getting zero, and I think the 2024 grads likewise.  That said, this year there is the one apprentice and a short term contract recipient. 

 

The school was moved to Elmhurst to allow a close association with the company with a view that graduates would move to the company but sadly the current BRB administration appear to no longer be see this.  It is very sad to see that Carlos Acosta's focus seems to be very London-based with performance opportunities being offered to RBS, ENBS and Central students rather than Elmhurst ones, even though a recent BRB2 ex-RBS grad having originally trained for 5 years at Elmhurst  LS first and a significant number of ENBS & Central students having trained at Elmhurst for lower school.

 

If you look at the artists in the company, there are a scattering of Elmhurst alumni from the last few years but I do know of some who danced with the company for a short period before moving on, a blink and you will miss them kind of scenario.

 

Not sure if this answers the OP's observation at all but the above is based on my first-hand knowledge and conversations with the school.

 

 

[Chira]

Thankyou @dancefanatic this is what I had noticed looking in and remember from when my son started training (not Elmhurst).

 

I did look back and saw that US Elmhurst did not really figure.

 

I also heard through my sons AD, that BRB is actively in talks to actively link with other US’s in the UK. 

 

All roads seem to always lead back to RBS which is so disappointing for so many talented dancers graduating in the UK.

[Peanut68]

Surely this could be where their Patron could bring some influence to bear perhaps? Isn’t Queen Camilla the schools Patron? Would if not be in her sphere to suggest closer links with BRB? I’ve long felt Elm needs to be rebranded as Birmingham Royal Ballet School & solidify a connection with BRB. Geography should be bought to bear on government funded RB & BRB to have their connection with their local ‘royal’ feeder school IMHO. And other schools should align with other companies. Sure, they all want the best of the best but IMO apprentice/junior artist roles should necessarily go to aligned school grads….so ENBS to ENB too. 
If we taxpayers are funding all these things then surely government departments could  enforce sone sort of employment opportunity links? 
As an ex Elm myself I don’t feel after all these years & move to Birmingham that there needs to be a sentimental tie to the name ‘Elmhurst’ & I’m sure after this time there must be ways of overturning covenants or such things erstwhile in place restricting name changes. 
To be called BRBS has much greater relevance today. Elmhurst can be maintained in name - make the building name Elmhurst, have the touring grad year company called Elmhurst Ballet Company, maintain the traditional blue colourway etc etc… style the logos to reflect the traditional Elmhurst styles…..

A move with the times shake up already happened when they moved to Birmingham - time the name reflected this & thus its perceived positioning & level within the ballet world! All just my personal thoughts…

 

Edited September 22 by Peanut68

[Doing Dance 1]

I think there have been some interesting points made and the suggested re-naming to BRBS in particular does seems logical.

However, when the RBS recent yearly report clearly states that:

 

‘We nurture, train and educate exceptional young dancers for the Royal Ballet companies’

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/annual-reports/2024/

 

Could this perhaps be why ‘Elmhurst in association with BRB’ seems less concrete in terms of employment?

[Swanwings]

@Doing Dance 1 I think this is very much the reason for it. RBS was always the feeder school for RB and Sadlers Wells (befoire it became BRB), it doesnt seems to have changed much and I doubt it will.

 

There seems to be a steering away from feeder schools in the UK... unless anyone can tell me more? ENBS has less to do with ENB, Central used to be feeder for Northern but not so much these days. 

 

I particularly noted that ENB recently took on several new dancers this season. Whilst it is good to see some movement; all were trained abroad. Unless I missed something.

[Farawaydancer]

Part of the issue in recent times is that Elmhurst have been reluctant to release their students for the prolonged periods that BRB have asked for, saying that they would miss too much training at a crucial time. This has especially been an issue in the post-covid years when they had already had restricted training for a period. 

[SpideyDad]

1 hour ago, Swanwings said:

@Doing Dance 1 I think this is very much the reason for it. RBS was always the feeder school for RB and Sadlers Wells (befoire it became BRB), it doesnt seems to have changed much and I doubt it will.

 

There seems to be a steering away from feeder schools in the UK... unless anyone can tell me more? ENBS has less to do with ENB, Central used to be feeder for Northern but not so much these days. 

 

I particularly noted that ENB recently took on several new dancers this season. Whilst it is good to see some movement; all were trained abroad. Unless I missed something.

Funnily enough, ENB/ENBS announced this, this weekend on LinkedIn (not sure why it's not on general Social Media):

 

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/english-national-ballet_english-national-ballet-and-english-national-activity-7242903936217624578-EpAx?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android

 

It seems like Lynne Charles and Aaron Watkin are reconnecting the Company & School...

[Swanwings]

19 minutes ago, SpideyDad said:

Funnily enough, ENB/ENBS announced this, this weekend on LinkedIn (not sure why it's not on general Social Media):

 

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/english-national-ballet_english-national-ballet-and-english-national-activity-7242903936217624578-EpAx?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android

 

It seems like Lynne Charles and Aaron Watkin are reconnecting the Company & School...

This sounds very interesting... I was able to read it on the website. Hopefully things will change for the better then! I am very happy to eat those particular words!

Edited Sunday at 20:07 by Swanwings

[SpideyDad]

33 minutes ago, Swanwings said:

This sounds very interesting... I was able to read it on the website. Hopefully things will change for the better then! I am very happy to eat those particular words!

Actually, the website is easier for most:

https://www.enbschool.org.uk/news/exciting-new-initiative-between-enb-and-enbs/

[Peanut68]

On 22/09/2024 at 18:23, Doing Dance 1 said:

We nurture, train and educate exceptional young dancers for the Royal Ballet companies’

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/annual-reports/2024/

 

Could this perhaps be why ‘Elmhurst in association with BRB’ seems less concrete in terms of employment?

Again this is where pressure surely needs to be put to bear to say ‘put your money where your mouth is’ if levelling up & making culture more widely represented is an Arts Council/Government/

Establishment aim (such as the enforced move of ENB to Manchester….if I’m right?) 

[Peanut68]

On 22/09/2024 at 21:39, SpideyDad said:

Actually, the website is easier for most:

https://www.enbschool.org.uk/news/exciting-new-initiative-between-enb-and-enbs/

Well this is exactly as it should be! And I’m sure will add to the prestige & desirability of ENBS for upper school training….now what we need to see is an emphasis on that training being offered predominantly to English’ dancers (I use English as in the school name but intend  it to encompass all UK born/national trainee dancers) 

And this in turn might assist in the company selecting more ‘English’ dancers to more accurately reflect what we audiences expect/want from a company with such a National identifying name!

I wonder if anyone has researched across the spectrum of the worlds top ‘National’ companies to see the % makeup of ‘homegrown’ versus ‘imported’ talent. I anticipate that our UK ‘National’ companies fair rather poorly compared to the deemed representative of their nation or region companies of most other countries across all continents…. Would love to be joining Swanwings in eating words!!

[Jan McNulty]

7 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Again this is where pressure surely needs to be put to bear to say ‘put your money where your mouth is’ if levelling up & making culture more widely represented is an Arts Council/Government/

Establishment aim (such as the enforced move of ENB to Manchester….if I’m right?) 

 

It’s English National Opera being forced to relocate!

[Pas de Quatre]

Just by coincidence, BBC was showing an old episode of Yes Prime Minister which I watched last night. Its theme was Culture and Government grants to the Arts Council. Could have been written today!

[Kerfuffle]

On Instagram Elmhurst were celebrating their relationship with BRB, described as “their associate company”  something is changing there too? This definitely does boost the school if that is the case particularly if BRB reciprocate by choosing some of their students. What is evident with Lynne Charles at ENBS is that she already shares a vision with Aaron Watkins, ENB AD, in what ballet is and is tailoring the teaching to fit. I think this is where there has to be joined up thinking between school and company. 

[Anna C]

16 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

now what we need to see is an emphasis on that training being offered predominantly to English’ dancers (I use English as in the school name but intend  it to encompass all UK born/national trainee dancers)

This has come up a lot in past threads, but - and forgive me if I’m misunderstanding your “UK born/national trainee dancers” here, Peanut, but imagine the Royal Ballet with only UK born/British nationals.  
 

It doesn’t matter to me, nor should it to anyone else, *where* a student or dancer was born and raised.  My issue with UK ballet training (and I’m using RBS only as an example), has been that hitherto, it’s been almost impossible (and in one or two years, literally impossible) for a student to make it through lower school, into upper school, and into the company.  When the school in question is an official “feeder school” for (or is “Associated with”) a ballet company, then it should be the norm that the school can train and provide a good proportion of the type of dancers that the Company AD is looking for.

 

Should ADs of UK companies take more UK trained dancers?  Absolutely, in my opinion, because otherwise, what’s the point of having feeder schools or schools associated with/linked with a company?  But only having British *born* dancers would deprive us all of some wonderful, world-class dancers. 

 

 

 

 

[Kerfuffle]

I agree with the above, at upper school level I think it’s reasonable that there would be quite an international intake in schools such as RBS and ENBS. As long as the home grown/trained students have fair chance of getting a place I think that other nationalities  enrich the experience at school and also realistically reflect the way that ballet companies are global employers. This is the same at music conservatoires in the UK, and top universities,  they are highly selective and international. The challenge is for the lower schools to train their students to be at the same standard as those from abroad. 

[taxi4ballet]

21 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I wonder if anyone has researched across the spectrum of the worlds top ‘National’ companies to see the % makeup of ‘homegrown’ versus ‘imported’ talent. I anticipate that our UK ‘National’ companies fair rather poorly compared to the deemed representative of their nation or region companies of most other countries across all continents…. 

Yes I have, and they do fare rather poorly. I picked half a dozen a few years ago and checked them (and their respective orchestras) out.

 

Unlike orchestras (a similarly international occupation one would have thought), where a far greater number of the musicians are 'home-grown' as it were, the difference was stark. I can understand why the cream of principal dancers, opera singers, conductors and first violinists etc would be drawn from the best of the best globally, but there really is no excuse for ballet companies not to employ the denizens of their home country in larger numbers. If orchestras can do it, why not ballet companies?  In the UK we have some of the best vocational dance schools in the world (or so they tell us). It should be easy.

 

Edited to add: I just this minute looked at the Coryphee list of the Australian Ballet. There are 11 of them, and all but 3 are Australian born, the other three all trained at the Australian Ballet School. 

Edited Wednesday at 19:17 by taxi4ballet

[Peanut68]

15 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

It’s English National Opera being forced to relocate!

Oh yes - I’d meant to actually say ENO but my fingers are so used to using the letter B! Apologies 

[dancefanatic]

23 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

On Instagram Elmhurst were celebrating their relationship with BRB, described as “their associate company”  something is changing there too? This definitely does boost the school if that is the case particularly if BRB reciprocate by choosing some of their students. What is evident with Lynne Charles at ENBS is that she already shares a vision with Aaron Watkins, ENB AD, in what ballet is and is tailoring the teaching to fit. I think this is where there has to be joined up thinking between school and company. 

I personally wouldn't read much into this as the school regularly send different year groups up to the BRB studios to watch a rehearsal and have done every year since my elder DC joined the school in 2016.  I would love it to mean they are mutually building their association but sadly, without the AD of the company actively visiting the school and inviting grad year students to dance with the company in productions such as The Nutcracker (until my DC's graduate year this was a given for the graduate students every year), the likelihood of employing more than the singular apprentice each year is, in my opinion, unrealistic.

[dancefanatic]

16 hours ago, Anna C said:

It doesn’t matter to me, nor should it to anyone else, *where* a student or dancer was born and raised.  My issue with UK ballet training (and I’m using RBS only as an example), has been that hitherto, it’s been almost impossible (and in one or two years, literally impossible) for a student to make it through lower school, into upper school, and into the company.  When the school in question is an official “feeder school” for (or is “Associated with”) a ballet company, then it should be the norm that the school can train and provide a good proportion of the type of dancers that the Company AD is looking for.

 

Should ADs of UK companies take more UK trained dancers?  Absolutely, in my opinion, because otherwise, what’s the point of having feeder schools or schools associated with/linked with a company?  But only having British *born* dancers would deprive us all of some wonderful, world-class dancers. 

 

 

 

 

I so agree with you here Anna C.  To see British-trained dancers from LS going all the way British US through to British company dancer contracts would be amazing and, indeed, was once the case.

[Kerfuffle]

I hope that the AD does reciprocate with the Elmhurst students, dancefanatic. Maybe the Instagram post is  a nudge. I think that competitions are a lot of the reason why British students aren’t as successful as they were, especially if a large proportion of them are replaced towards the end of lower school. A fair amount of British students do choose to train abroad post 16 so it’s not just one way. I have heard that lower schools abroad have the same situation where fewer of them are home grown after 16. I guess that POB has succeeded in staying mostly French but they are in a minority. 

[BalletParent123]

As a parent of a younger dancer, I'd love to see more ENBS grads getting positions at ENB and more Elmhurst grads getting positions at BRB. Anything they can do to strengthen those links is a good thing. The cynic in me says I'll believe it when I see it but at least in the case of ENB it sounds like there is a genuine desire to work together. I'm not sensing the same about Elmhurst (as the desire perhaps seems one way) but I would love to be proven wrong. 

 

At the moment, it appears to me is that if you graduate from RBS then you're likely to get a classical ballet contract. If you are in the top few at ENBS you will also likely get a classical ballet contract. If you come through Elmhurst or Central or RCS then realistically it's maybe only 1 or 2 girls who get a contract, probably a bit higher for boys.

 

And this is against the backdrop that RBS Upper is extremely hard to get into (and also it's not a given that you will make it to the end of Upper School even if you do get in), ENBS is a bit easier but still very competitive, Elmhurst I don't really have a feel for how difficult it is to get a place and Central and RCS are not that hard to get into. Am I way off the mark here? 

[Kerfuffle]

RBS upper school has been nearly impossible to get into, my DD’s year has no British students at all in it and only one from year 7. The subsequent year has more from WL but most of them are international  replacements from abroad for last two years. At  ENBS my DD is one of 4 British trained  girls, the rest of the class is international. I think there are far more British in  Elmhurst, Central etc. This past year has been exceptionally difficult everyone to get employment, (including for students from top European schools)  they are the Covid intake and have also suffered lockdowns in their later training. I don’t know how much of a blip this is. 

[Swanwings]

39 minutes ago, BalletParent123 said:

As a parent of a younger dancer, I'd love to see more ENBS grads getting positions at ENB and more Elmhurst grads getting positions at BRB. Anything they can do to strengthen those links is a good thing. The cynic in me says I'll believe it when I see it but at least in the case of ENB it sounds like there is a genuine desire to work together. I'm not sensing the same about Elmhurst (as the desire perhaps seems one way) but I would love to be proven wrong. 

 

At the moment, it appears to me is that if you graduate from RBS then you're likely to get a classical ballet contract. If you are in the top few at ENBS you will also likely get a classical ballet contract. If you come through Elmhurst or Central or RCS then realistically it's maybe only 1 or 2 girls who get a contract, probably a bit higher for boys.

 

And this is against the backdrop that RBS Upper is extremely hard to get into (and also it's not a given that you will make it to the end of Upper School even if you do get in), ENBS is a bit easier but still very competitive, Elmhurst I don't really have a feel for how difficult it is to get a place and Central and RCS are not that hard to get into. Am I way off the mark here? 

I dont think you are way off the mark at all.

 

 

[sillysally]

50 minutes ago, BalletParent123 said:

As a parent of a younger dancer, I'd love to see more ENBS grads getting positions at ENB and more Elmhurst grads getting positions at BRB. Anything they can do to strengthen those links is a good thing. The cynic in me says I'll believe it when I see it but at least in the case of ENB it sounds like there is a genuine desire to work together. I'm not sensing the same about Elmhurst (as the desire perhaps seems one way) but I would love to be proven wrong. 

 

At the moment, it appears to me is that if you graduate from RBS then you're likely to get a classical ballet contract. If you are in the top few at ENBS you will also likely get a classical ballet contract. If you come through Elmhurst or Central or RCS then realistically it's maybe only 1 or 2 girls who get a contract, probably a bit higher for boys.

 

And this is against the backdrop that RBS Upper is extremely hard to get into (and also it's not a given that you will make it to the end of Upper School even if you do get in), ENBS is a bit easier but still very competitive, Elmhurst I don't really have a feel for how difficult it is to get a place and Central and RCS are not that hard to get into. Am I way off the mark here? 

Hmmm....I'm not sure about your comments with regard to level required for ENBS, Elmhurst, Central and RCS. Are you implying that all UK vocational schools have a lower entrance level than RB? As I have no professional capacity to ascertain the level of each school, maybe you could explain your ranking of the schools? Personal or professional based?

[BalletParent123]

Purely personal - as I said, I am a parent of a younger dancer, watching with interest the graduate destinations (as far as I can make them out) from the main UK ballet schools. 

 

Looking on, yes it appears to me that it is harder to get into RB Upper than it is to get into each of the other schools. It also appears to me that ENB is the next hardest/next highest level. I think we need to be realistic that many of the graduates from the other schools will not end up getting a classical ballet contract. Maybe that's ok, maybe the training and experiences gained there are still useful, but I am a realist and I don't think it helps to sugar-coat the number of jobs that are ultimately available and who they are going to. 

 

As I mentioned above, I could be way off the mark. That is just my current (personal) impression of the UK upper schools. 

[Kerfuffle]

While there might be a hierarchy in a lot of people’s heads over which school is better your dancer needs to find the right fit. RBS is likely  to be the best connected as it has two ballet companies to feed into but that doesn’t necessarily mean that every single RBS dancer is better than every single dancer at any of the “lesser” schools when they graduate. The standards of teaching can vary from place to place so it’s possible to make greater improvement at a lesser known school or just plateau at a more  famous one. I would pay close attention to who the teachers are, their experience as well as the AD. What is on the  curriculum ? Getting a classical contract is an important goal but this also now involves being very good at contemporary. 

[BalletParent123]

1 minute ago, Kerfuffle said:

While there might be a hierarchy in a lot of people’s heads over which school is better your dancer needs to find the right fit. RBS is likely  to be the best connected as it has two ballet companies to feed into but that doesn’t necessarily mean that every single RBS dancer is better than every single dancer at any of the “lesser” schools when they graduate. The standards of teaching can vary from place to place so it’s possible to make greater improvement at a lesser known school or just plateau at a more  famous one. I would pay close attention to who the teachers are, their experience as well as the AD. What is on the  curriculum ? Getting a classical contract is an important goal but this also now involves being very good at contemporary. 

 

Totally agree and different schools will be right for different students - same as at lower school level. Some of the best (upper school level) dancers I have personally watched this year have been from ENB. I guess I am just thinking in general terms about job prospects because at some point you do need to think do we keep going down the ballet route and, if so, is it going to lead anywhere, or do we start trying to encourage university etc. 

 

Anyway, apologies for the tangent as the original question was about Elmhurst and BRB.