Forms of address

[Lizbie1]

(Mod's note: This major digression into how to address people originally formed part of this thread:)

 

On 02/08/2024 at 15:25, FionaM said:

 

The modern adult working world consider Ms to be more appropriate. 

 

Well I'm part of the modern adult working world and I choose to go by Miss, as do many of my (often younger) colleagues. If others prefer to use Ms I'm very happy for them to do so but I would resent its imposition.

 

 

Edited August 6 by alison

[Pas de Quatre]

Just to provide a little more confusion (and entertainment), I opened my ballet school a few years after getting married and moving to DH's home town.  So I used my married name in the title of the school as it seemed simpler. The school went well and various pupils have been RBS Associates, including DD. If I was accompanying her to an event at RBS I was addressed as Mrs X.  However when I was attending purely as a teacher I was called Miss X!

[Jan McNulty]

I don't think it's unusual for pupils in primary schools to call all female teachers Miss and just Miss with no name added.  Or has that changed recently.

[Lizbie1]

And then there was the often honorary "Mrs" afforded to upper servants. 

[Fonty]

With regard to Ms, Miss, Mrs etc, it is not a legal requirement for a woman to change her name on marriage.  As far as I know, I don't think it has been compulsory, although perhaps it was a long time ago.  But today it is personal choice by the woman, and should be her decision alone.    In fact I know several cases where the man changed his name to his wife's, either because she had a very unique name, or because he had a less desirable one.  I also know a couple of marriages which never took place because the woman refused to change her last name to his.  (The ladies were probably better off without those particular males in the first place in my opinion.....)

 

I couldn't care less if someone addresses me as Ms, Miss or Mrs.  Makes no difference at all to me.  But Ms is a recognised title, and has been for the last 40 odd years. 

[AnneMarriott]

20 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

 

I couldn't care less if someone addresses me as Ms, Miss or Mrs.  Makes no difference at all to me.  But Ms is a recognised title, and has been for the last 40 odd years. 

To get this thread even further off topic, I wish total strangers (such as call centre personnel, tradesmen, receptionists, for example) would do me the courtesy of addressing me as Mrs. Marriott instead of Anne, unless invited to do so.  As a woman of advanced years who was brought up to address adults either by their courtesy title + surname or Auntie/Uncle + first name I find the universal use of first names rather presumptuous.  OK, grumpy old woman signing off.

[oncnp]

5 minutes ago, AnneMarriott said:

To get this thread even further off topic, I wish total strangers (such as call centre personnel, tradesmen, receptionists, for example) would do me the courtesy of addressing me as Mrs. Marriott instead of Anne, unless invited to do so.  As a woman of advanced years who was brought up to address adults either by their courtesy title + surname or Auntie/Uncle + first name I find the universal use of first names rather presumptuous.  OK, grumpy old woman signing off.

 

Totally seconded. The only thing worse for me is to be addressed as "Honey" or "Dear" by complete strangers (or even incomplete ones). I'm stuck with "'Hon" as it is universal usage with some of my older patients

[AnneMarriott]

1 minute ago, oncnp said:

 

Totally seconded. The only thing worse for me is to be addressed as "Honey" or "Dear" by complete strangers (or even incomplete ones). I'm stuck with "'Hon" as it is universal usage with some of my older patients

Actually I don't mind the random endearments: Love, Duck. Darling etc because they are non-specific.  It's the use of my first name as if I am or want to be a bosom friend that I find so irksome.

[Scheherezade]

41 minutes ago, AnneMarriott said:

To get this thread even further off topic, I wish total strangers (such as call centre personnel, tradesmen, receptionists, for example) would do me the courtesy of addressing me as Mrs. Marriott instead of Anne, unless invited to do so.  As a woman of advanced years who was brought up to address adults either by their courtesy title + surname or Auntie/Uncle + first name I find the universal use of first names rather presumptuous.  OK, grumpy old woman signing off.

I am so with you on this. Totally presumptuous and over-familiar in the extreme. But, sadly, common courtesy went out if the window many decades ago. 

[bridiem]

I'm loving this thread 😁

[Garnier]

On 03/08/2024 at 16:30, Jan McNulty said:

I don't think it's unusual for pupils in primary schools to call all female teachers Miss and just Miss with no name added.  Or has that changed recently.

When I was in school in the 1980s/1990s, this was a sort of class divide - the children from very working-class family backgrounds did it but none of the others (who systematically added the name after). I have no idea whether it was common in other areas/schools or not, but noticing this was one of my first « lightbulb » moments that I was not living in a class-free society.

Edited August 4 by Garnier

[DD Driver]

My recent experience in Australian state schools (govt.) is that the teachers are often addressed as:

- Miss or Sir, as a quick form of address, and/or

- the name that the teacher requested up front e.g. Mrs./Ms./Miss/Mr. Pod.

 

In Catholic Girl's schools, only the requested name is used. Not Miss or Sir.

Private boys' schools may be different.

[Sophoife]

Australian private boys' school in the 1980s: always "sir" unless the staff member was female, then it was "Miss" or "Mrs" X. Girls' private schools (not Catholic) it was always "Miss, Mrs or [very rarely] Mr" X.

 

Same holds for other family members' schools down to nephew in year 11 right now.

[Sabine0308]

@Moderators: Is there any way to make the "Ms/Mrs/Sir/Mr..." whatever discussion a thread on its own?🙄

[Emeralds]

On 03/08/2024 at 15:30, Jan McNulty said:

I don't think it's unusual for pupils in primary schools to call all female teachers Miss and just Miss with no name added.  Or has that changed recently.

@Jan McNulty is correct- it's still common practice in British primary and secondary schools, that teachers are addressed as Sir or Miss as a generic form of respectful address (Mrs is not used) if the pupil doen't know their surname (eg if they don't teach the pupil's class but the pupil knows they are teachers), or if they perhaps have long surnames eg "Mrs Cunningham", "Mr Vaughan Williams" etc.

 

Miss is used for female regardless of whether they normally use Mrs, Ms, or Miss as a title. 

 

Also, in some countries women officially retain their maiden name after marriage and it is considered rude or daft to address them as Mrs [Husband's Surname], unless they have specifically asked you to do so, or introduced themselves as "Mrs [Husband's Surname]".

Edited August 5 by Emeralds

[bangorballetboy]

5 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

it's still common practice in British primary and secondary schools, that teachers are addressed as Sir or Miss as a generic form of respectful address (Mrs is not used)...

 

I was until recently vice-chair of governors of a primary school in a deprived area of south London.  In that school, the children used the teacher's names (Mr., Mrs. or Miss, as appropriate).  It was the same for any other adult they met in the school and, if they didn't know someone's name, they asked.    

[Emeralds]

18 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

I was until recently vice-chair of governors of a primary school in a deprived area of south London.  In that school, the children used the teacher's names (Mr., Mrs. or Miss, as appropriate).  It was the same for any other adult they met in the school and, if they didn't know someone's name, they asked.    

True, not all schools use the old address "Sir" or "Miss". But many still do - and that's still the case in private schools, state schools or whether the school is in an affluent or deprived residential area. 

 

There are some educational institutions nowadays - sixth form colleges and further education colleges (for members and readers outside the UK, these are schools where the students are over 16) -  where the teachers are all addressed by their first name and even the use of Mr X, Mrs X, Miss X or Dr X by students is actively discouraged, which I found confusing at first, especially when there were about five teachers called David and four teachers called Lisa. We kept asking "which David are we referring to?" or "Is it Lisa in Chemistry or Lisa in Spanish?" 

 

Rather unusually though, I did once have two teachers with the same uncommon first name, same surname, and they both taught the same subject in the same department. Luckily, one of them had a middle initial (the other did not) so that was used to indicate which teacher we were referring to. 

Edited August 5 by Emeralds

[Dawnstar]

5 hours ago, Emeralds said:

True, not all schools use the old address "Sir" or "Miss". But many still do - and that's still the case in private schools, state schools or whether the school is in an affluent or deprived residential area. 

 

There are some educational institutions nowadays - sixth form colleges and further education colleges (for members and readers outside the UK, these are schools where the students are over 16) -  where the teachers are all addressed by their first name

 

When I went to sixth form college I remember being very surprised at many students saying "sir" or "miss" (including to married women) as at my previous schools, one state and two private, the teachers were always Mr/Mrs/Miss surname. I was even more surprised when one of the chemistry teachers told us to call him by his first name. I compromised by referring to him as Dr first name. At university I just about managed to call a couple of the younger tutors by their first names but still found it a bit uncomfortable. Even now I prefer to address people older than me by title & surname if I don't know them.

 

I personally, being single & highly unlikely to ever marry, use Miss & get annoyed if I receive post or emails addressed to Ms. I particularly dislike Ms when said aloud as I find the sound decidedly unattractive.

[Sabine0308]

In Deutschland gab es das veraltete "Fräulein", für unverheiratete Frauen. Es wird nicht mehr benutzt. Sondern jede erwachsene Frau wird einfach mit "Frau" angesprochen.

[Linnzi5]

On 03/08/2024 at 15:30, Jan McNulty said:

I don't think it's unusual for pupils in primary schools to call all female teachers Miss and just Miss with no name added.  Or has that changed recently.

Not in primary, in my experience. Secondary? Absolutely. I work in a primary school and our Head would be unhappy if children didn't use our full names and titles (Miss, Ms, Mrs, Mr X) and this has been my experience for all primaries I have either worked in or visited. I've been to two secondaries recently (in a professional capacity) and the pupils generally called all staff (including Heads, who all the pupils knew) 'miss' or 'sir' accordingly (including me, who they didn't know).

7 hours ago, Emeralds said:

@Jan McNulty is correct- it's still common practice in British primary and secondary schools, that teachers are addressed as Sir or Miss as a generic form of respectful address (Mrs is not used) if the pupil doen't know their surname (eg if they don't teach the pupil's class but the pupil knows they are teachers), or if they perhaps have long surnames eg "Mrs Cunningham", "Mr Vaughan Williams" etc.

 

Miss is used for female regardless of whether they normally use Mrs, Ms, or Miss as a title. 

 

Also, in some countries women officially retain their maiden name after marriage and it is considered rude or daft to address them as Mrs [Husband's Surname], unless they have specifically asked you to do so, or introduced themselves as "Mrs [Husband's Surname]".

As I said above, it is unusual in primaries for this to happen. As the communities are smaller and classes have one (or sometimes two) main teacher(s), all children know their teachers' names - same for support staff. Secondaries, in my recent experience, are different. I can only speak for my present school, but it doesn't matter how long or unusual an adult's surname is, children are expected to remember and say it correctly (I know of some staff who have unusual names and the children always do their best to say names correctly, sometimes with hilarious results!) However, this does depend on the Head. My Head does not allow things like Mr M or a shorter version of a more challenging name - it's considered disrespectful and unprofessional in the eyes of the senior leaders.

7 hours ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

I was until recently vice-chair of governors of a primary school in a deprived area of south London.  In that school, the children used the teacher's names (Mr., Mrs. or Miss, as appropriate).  It was the same for any other adult they met in the school and, if they didn't know someone's name, they asked.    

Yes. This has always been my experience. There would be no reason for children not to know staff they see (usually) daily and to know their names and use them.  In fact, as I said above, it would be viewed as inappropriate to call a staff member 'sir' or 'miss' in my school community. The only thing I've been called by the odd very little one is, 'teacher!'. In the unlikely event a child didn't know my name, they would ask what it was in my school.

 

I am Mrs and like to be called that. However, I personally wouldn't be offended if someone called me Ms or Miss. Interestingly, my eldest daughter has chosen to keep her maiden name and not use her husband's surname, which was unusual when I got married. Then again, I hated my maiden name and was glad to ditch it! 🤣

 

Edited August 5 by Linnzi5

[DelphiumBlue]

Ah , Miss and Sir ! I don’t remember them much from my own 70s schooldays ( small interconnected community primary, large modern minded secondary ) but they were most certainly alive and well during my teaching career - more Miss than Sir as I was in primary. 
 
And they are still going strong in the varied London ( state) secondary schools  attended by my niece and nephew and the ones where my sister and brother-in law are teaching . Often teachers themselves use it , ‘ What did Miss / Sir just say? Well then … do it ! ‘ 
   @Garnier mentioned the ‘class’ aspect of using Miss/Sir ; at the 1st school I taught at the deputy head really disliked  pupils using the shorthand ‘Miss’ ….

No, no , no , Johnny /Mary , names have a handle . I am Miss M.
Sorry Miss…I mean Miss M. 
   She framed it in terms of manners but perhaps  unconsciously she meant class. 
This was in a fairly standard mixed  outer suburban school. 

As @DD Driver says it’s often a just a short form of address  as we were also called Miss/Mrs/Ms/ Mr X by pupils .  My sister did a teaching practice in a local RC ( state) school in the 90s where staff were known as Sir/Madam or Father. 

Starting teaching as Miss DB , I was a bit surprised to be called Mrs DB by some of the 7/ 8 year olds but then realised that all  their previous teachers  happened to be Mrs X/Y/Z so it was just an automatic response. Sometimes I was even absent mindedly  called Mum.

 

Back to ballet … my 1st ballet teacher was known as  Miss Yvonne.  The pianist was Miss Jones and at the time,  I didn’t think too much about the subtleties of that - too busy keeping up with the class. 

We only used it occasionally

‘I’m sorry but I won’t be here next week, Miss Yvonne’ .

Parents writing in  ‘Please find enclosed a cheque for DB’s ballet classes next term ‘ would use Miss D tho . 

So the significance of ballet teachers being Miss /Mr 1st name rather passed me by at the time, I just thought it was one of Miss Yvonne’s  idiosyncrasies ! 

 

 

 

[alison]

19 hours ago, Sabine0308 said:

@Moderators: Is there any way to make the "Ms/Mrs/Sir/Mr..." whatever discussion a thread on its own?🙄

 

I wish... 🙁

[Sophoife]

Golly, we would never have called Barbara Todd "Miss Barbara"! She was "Mrs Todd" to all, except to her daughter Ann, who occasionally filled in and enchanted us by calling her "Mum" 😄 

 

My piano teacher, likewise, was "Mrs Johnson". Certain long-term older students were permitted to use her Christian name ("Sophoife, you may use my Christian name, it is Eileen. But not in front of the children, please.").

[taxi4ballet]

When I was at school (comprehensives in two different new towns), we all called the teachers either Sir or Ma'am (pronounced Marm).

[LinMM]

I was usually addressed by Miss plus surname as a former teacher except when the children were really excited to tell me something then it would be “Miss, Miss,Miss………( there’s a huge spider in the Art tray) …. Miss tries to find X who is good at dealing with spiders!! 

[Pas de Quatre]

I think it has a deeper root in that we seem to love illeration or rhymes, so "Please Miss" is very embedded.

[AnneMarriott]

On 05/08/2024 at 17:43, Sabine0308 said:

In Deutschland gab es das veraltete "Fräulein", für unverheiratete Frauen. Es wird nicht mehr benutzt. Sondern jede erwachsene Frau wird einfach mit "Frau" angesprochen.

It can't be just "Frau", can it?  Wouldn't it be "Frau (Etwas)" or "Meine Frau?"  I've probably misunderstood - it's several decades since my rudimentary German-speaking days.

[alison]

Frau + first name or surname is usual, as far as I know.  For probably anyone in their early 20s or higher.

 

I suspect the original digression was because MAX comes from a country in which this is the standard form of address - far less complicated than English!

[AnneMarriott]

44 minutes ago, alison said:

Frau + first name or surname is usual, as far as I know.  For probably anyone in their early 20s or higher.

 

 

Thanks, Alison.  On reflection I think "Meine Frau" means "my wife".  I do remember "Gnaedige (can't do Umlauts) Frau", but that's probably terribly outdated.

[LinMM]

Yes think that’s what I learnt back in German speaking days!! 

[Sabine0308]

5 hours ago, AnneMarriott said:

It can't be just "Frau", can it?  Wouldn't it be "Frau (Etwas)" or "Meine Frau?"  I've probably misunderstood - it's several decades since my rudimentary German-speaking days.

It would be Frau Schmidt, always with the surname. Frau Sabine, in my case, would be really weird🤪

[Sabine0308]

I was mainly referring to the spoken word, so I shall add: when it comes to write the address on an envelope, for example, it can be of course to "Frau Sabine Schmidt". Frau Schmidt would be sufficient, but with First name it's just nicer.

"Gnaedige Frau" is indeed terribly outdated, but maybe it's still common language between aristocratic people. I do not know😃

[LinMM]

Ha ha Sabine I definitely recall using Gnädige Frau at some point at school!
But it’s a bit like going to France for the very first time and nobody understands your very polite text book French!! You soon get a taste for a bit of French/German slang!