Vocational schools and VAT

[Medora]

@Raquelle I feel for you. I’m really upset when I read online comments on this topic as the assumption is often that all forms of private education is a complete luxury which you are lucky to be able to afford in the first place. So many people make huge sacrifices to make things work and the thought of having to throw it all away halfway through, making it all somewhat worthless, is awful

[Pas de Quatre]

Another point to consider - once these schools are registered for VAT everything, Associate courses, summer schools etc will all have VAT imposed.

[Peanut68]

46 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Another point to consider - once these schools are registered for VAT everything, Associate courses, summer schools etc will all have VAT imposed.

Very good point….where associate or weekend  classes at vocational schools such as Tring were a viable option alongside a small local dance school, perhaps no longer? Guess on the upside, it may bring more broader talent to local smaller non bat registered dance schools…???

[Peanut68]

Non VAT not non bat…. Though do think this whole policy is somewhat batty as I honestly do not see how the state system could ever accommodate the children from middle class households who have made the decision for whatever reason to allocate finances to fund education (often in place of larger houses/holidays/cars etc) The well heeled will still afford fees with little notice but others may well have to leave… and are there places/teachers for all these extra pupils? Guess longterm maybe the teaching staff from reduced private sector can be moved into state sector but that will not be an overnight fix whereas this is an immediate hit tax. 

[sunrise81]

I have emailed my local MP, who wants to meet to discuss this! 

[Hannah 78]

That’s a good idea. I can email my MP too. If you are up for sharing body of email to make it easier for others to email I’m sure that would be appreciated.

[sunrise81]

4 minutes ago, Hannah 78 said:

That’s a good idea. I can email my MP too. If you are up for sharing body of email to make it easier for others to email I’m sure that would be appreciated.

Well all I actually did was mention him in a tweet about it! And it seems to have got a very quick reply! He asked me to email him so we can meet and discuss

Edited July 30 by sunrise81

[Bluebird22]

41 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Non VAT not non bat…. Though do think this whole policy is somewhat batty as I honestly do not see how the state system could ever accommodate the children from middle class households who have made the decision for whatever reason to allocate finances to fund education (often in place of larger houses/holidays/cars etc) The well heeled will still afford fees with little notice but others may well have to leave… and are there places/teachers for all these extra pupils? Guess longterm maybe the teaching staff from reduced private sector can be moved into state sector but that will not be an overnight fix whereas this is an immediate hit tax. 

Having just spent an academic year in secondary schools - they absolutely cannot accommodate more, at least not in schools that aren’t in special measures or have an RI stamp from OFSTED. There aren’t enough teachers for a start. I was working as a supply teacher and I could have filled my week easily 4 times over with the amount of emails I’d get Sunday evening and Monday morning. The exodus of teachers is very very real. In some schools the solution they’d like to offer is to increase class sizes, except the classrooms themselves aren’t big enough. 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

17 minutes ago, Bluebird22 said:

Having just spent an academic year in secondary schools - they absolutely cannot accommodate more, at least not in schools that aren’t in special measures or have an RI stamp from OFSTED. There aren’t enough teachers for a start. I was working as a supply teacher and I could have filled my week easily 4 times over with the amount of emails I’d get Sunday evening and Monday morning. The exodus of teachers is very very real. In some schools the solution they’d like to offer is to increase class sizes, except the classrooms themselves aren’t big enough. 

There are mixed classes of 67, it'll just become a new norm.

Middle class is doomed anyway, there's no one else to fleece.

[Peanut68]

Well, they could try go after getting the tax surely due by the likes of Amazon & google & TikTok …. Not fleecing - merely good agricultural harvesting from intense farming practises from these global giants 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

12 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Well, they could try go after getting the tax surely due by the likes of Amazon & google & TikTok …. Not fleecing - merely good agricultural harvesting from intense farming practises from these global giants 

Those are sharks, not sheep

Middle classes usually don't fight back, it's not in their nature.

"Times they are a-changing"...

[Kerfuffle]

Outside the vocational issue I think that schools can adapt even from being private to state and still give an excellent education. My children’s secondary school is proof of this, after changing from private to state academy it has maintained its lead as a top school in our city including its specialism in music - very high standards including places achieved at top conservatoires in London. Both my children have done very well academically. I also agree with @Peanut68 that it’s possible that some local dance schools and other provisions might also get a boost - remember these are the places that got your child into lower schools in the first place. My   DD managed to compete at YAGP, win scholarships and a very good upper school place in this country without going to boarding school so it is possible to do very well with local training and she’s not the only one clearly looking at this forum. Good luck to all parents in this tricky situation, there is a way around these challenges for you all. 

[Pointeperfect]

Paragraph 2.11 of the above linked document carries a phrase about exempting certain institutions to allow a wide range of people to access the training they provide. Hopefully there is something within that that could be used to justify exempting ballet training. Especially as there is no state alternative. 

A consultation period spanning the summer holidays is also most unreasonable!

[Trumpeting Violinist]

10 minutes ago, Pointeperfect said:

Paragraph 2.11 of the above linked document carries a phrase about exempting certain institutions to allow a wide range of people to access the training they provide. Hopefully there is something within that that could be used to justify exempting ballet training. Especially as there is no state alternative. 

A consultation period spanning the summer holidays is also most unreasonable!

2.11 relates to FE colleges in this list https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/further-education-colleges-in-the-uk

 

It's a draft legislation still so there will be changes, but as the policy is purely ideological I wouldn't expect "elitist" ballet and music schools to be exempt.

Edited July 31 by Trumpeting Violinist

[Hannah 78]

2 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Outside the vocational issue I think that schools can adapt even from being private to state and still give an excellent education. My children’s secondary school is proof of this, after changing from private to state academy it has maintained its lead as a top school in our city including its specialism in music - very high standards including places achieved at top conservatoires in London. Both my children have done very well academically. I also agree with @Peanut68 that it’s possible that some local dance schools and other provisions might also get a boost - remember these are the places that got your child into lower schools in the first place. My   DD managed to compete at YAGP, win scholarships and a very good upper school place in this country without going to boarding school so it is possible to do very well with local training and she’s not the only one clearly looking at this forum. Good luck to all parents in this tricky situation, there is a way around these challenges for you all. 

Totally agree but in my area these are almost impossible to get into . 

[Allwrong]

Maybe optimistic re excellence in schools? Classical music has gradually been totally killed off in my children’s school because it’s deemed elitist. Plenty of support and opportunities for jazz and rock. Same even true in Kaneh-Mason children’s school, so what does it take to avoid the dumbing down ? Especially as academies are now being required to conform to natIonal norms. The contrast with private schools for music couldn’t be starker. Musically gifted son (for fun, fortunately !) is cashing in at university on the rich opportunities his private school peers think normal, but it’s a glorious and complete revelation for him.

However, I do think the good news for dance is that it is becoming more open to alternative training routes that don’t require boarding pre-16. I think this is very exciting !

[Kerfuffle]

1 hour ago, Allwrong said:

Maybe optimistic re excellence in schools? Classical music has gradually been totally killed off in my children’s school because it’s deemed elitist. Plenty of support and opportunities for jazz and rock. Same even true in Kaneh-Mason children’s school, so what does it take to avoid the dumbing down ? Especially as academies are now being required to conform to natIonal norms. The contrast with private schools for music couldn’t be starker. Musically gifted son (for fun, fortunately !) is cashing in at university on the rich opportunities his private school peers think normal, but it’s a glorious and complete revelation for him.

However, I do think the good news for dance is that it is becoming more open to alternative training routes that don’t require boarding pre-16. I think this is very exciting !

I think you’re right and it definitely depends on the school still prioritising classical alongside other music opportunities and offering a good grounding in the academic side of music. Well done to your musical son for making the most of what’s on offer!
My  children’s school has managed to keep excellent classical training alongside its jazz and more popular music. The kids are encouraged to cross over into big bands, gospel, steel pans and they can take up an instrument learning in a group for free from year 7. The top symphony orchestra is easily as good as anything  you’d hear at a private school, many students are at least grade 8 level and some on instruments they only started at 11 years old, even ending up with places at top conservatories. It has wonderful choirs too and some of the students are choristers/ex choristers  at its cathedral which it is associated with. It is truly fantastic and all for free! 
I think it is possible to still do very well at 16 when it comes to upper schools but it does involve some extras alongside a good grounding in ballet technique at a regular ballet school. I don’t really think intensives/associates are the only answer, a good local private lesson (as you would as an instrumentalist) can make sure you’re on track and making the most of natural facilities. Throw in some performance opportunites and you can be successful. 

 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

2 hours ago, Hannah 78 said:

Totally agree but in my area these are almost impossible to get into . 

Same. We lived three houses down the road from a very good school - my DS didn't get in. Interestingly enough, a child of a well known journalist who lived in another borough roughly 40 minutes away did get in 😂 Wonders of the system!

 

@Kerfuffle I'm not too sure it's all about academic standards - DS went to state comp then to grammar, DD was in top-25 private. There was nothing special academically in the private one, I was not impressed at all tbh. What was different was the attitude they instilled in children - confidence borderline with overconfidence, even if you don't know that much. Confidence is not necessarily a bad thing but I can see how it can be annoying and why there so much hostility between classes.

 

Sorry it's slightly off-topic for ballet. The whole system looks totally ridiculous to me, even before VAT - in some countries talented children don't have to pay anything whatsoever, they study for free because they will eventually represent the country. It's not just Olympic sports - great musicians, artists, writers and ballet dancers are all the country's "cultural capital".

[balletmummy24]

Where do non vocational dance schools fit in? Are they going to be clobbered for VAT also?

[Pas de Quatre]

At present it is very complicated, like other businesses it depends whether your turnover meets the VAT threshhold. However which lessons count towards this and which are exempt is not clear.  Generally ballet is exempt as it is considered educational, but there are so many other genres. There has been an argument taken to Tribunal and is stuck in the legal system, so don't hold your breath. Of course now that the Government is going to apply VAT to private education the ballet exemption may disappear.

[Chira]

1 hour ago, balletmummy24 said:

Where do non vocational dance schools fit in? Are they going to be clobbered for VAT also?

It’s all private schools not just those that offer specialist vocational training options. 

[stardust1]

I am definitely not an expert on this at all but even after the government removes the VAT exemption where education and vocational training are provided by a private school,  I think they still have to be provided for a charge in order to become subject to VAT.  To the extent that they are funded by approved government schemes, so MDS and Dada, then the cost could remain exempt.   Clearly, this would mean that some UK vocational schools are even more disadvantaged by not having as much funding as others which doesn't seem equitable but then again we know the government hasn't thought this through properly.   It may also mean that individual parents are impacted disproportionately based on their level of funding.

[Raquelle]

I've written to my MP this morning and my DD school. Hopefully will find out more soon! 

 

A friend sent a link to this page. There is a section on grants and MDS. Being completely honest I can't work out what it means but it might help someone on here who is more knowledgeable! 

 

https://www.isbabulletin.org.uk/Newsletter/weekly-bulletin/2023-10-12

[Peanut68]

6 hours ago, Chira said:

It’s all private schools not just those that offer specialist vocational training options. 

So does the not so little (ie. Where trading goes over a certain income threshold) local recreational dance school also now also become VAT registered & have to add 20% to all class fees? Actually, do they already I wonder? Are they classes as education or as a ‘service’ industry? 

[Kerfuffle]

I doubt that this affects recreational local ballet schools as they aren’t offering academic education  (the 3 Rs etc). Labour don’t think that private schools should be given the perk of a tax break to put some children at an advantage educationally over others. Ballet schools/music schools are unfortunate in being  included in this category. Maybe governments could support them more, although perhaps there are better ways in making sure all talented kids get a chance to dance to a higher level without leaving home. There has just been another article on Sky to do with abuse at private ballet boarding schools. 

Edited July 31 by Kerfuffle

[Pas de Quatre]

Local dance schools over the VAT threshold have always had to register and pay VAT (see my previous post), exactly the same as your local plumber.

[EverHopeful]

It’s surely much more about individual aptitude than schooling. I’m from a very working class background and achieved much higher academic grades at a local council-run school than most people who went to fee-paying private schools. 
Similarly, I’m sure ballet students with a natural aptitude will generally out-shine those who attend elite paid-for training. Money can’t buy talent, and neither can a very good work ethic either (in general) unfortunately. 
I find this very frustrating myself - I never had to study a day in my life to achieve top grades for everything at school. Yet I spend hours/days/weeks/months etc etc studying the RAD ballet grades and I’m still nowhere near distinctions for level 2 and 3 exams. It doesn’t seem fair, but it’s just the way it is I guess 

[Kerfuffle]

40 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Local dance schools over the VAT threshold have always had to register and pay VAT (see my previous post), exactly the same as your local plumber.

That  does make sense and it’s good  that local schools won’t suddenly have to charge more. 

[taxi4ballet]

On 30/07/2024 at 18:07, glowlight said:

 

As others have pointed out there is provision in the technical guidance for VAT to be applied on services billed now but which will be delivered after January 2025, however I wonder if they can actually add VAT to the invoice if they are not VAT registered.  Is the school VAT registered already? There should be a VAT registration number on the invoice if it is. If not I would query with them whether they can charge VAT at this stage.

You cannot charge anyone VAT if you are not VAT registered. You would have to register first and get your VAT registration number.

[taxi4ballet]

On 30/07/2024 at 20:05, Pas de Quatre said:

Another point to consider - once these schools are registered for VAT everything, Associate courses, summer schools etc will all have VAT imposed.

Not necessarily. I have yet to read the proposed legislation, but I will go through it with a fine tooth comb. It may well be that outreach work (which is what the associate programmes and holiday courses are) may come under their charitable arm, in which case VAT may not apply. 

 

I will take all this up with my MP, he  lives locally. He is also very keen on holding meetings with constituents. In fact, I think I know which pub he drinks in...

[Pointeshoesarethedream]

I used ChatGPT asking it to write me a letter to my MP in the impact of VAT on vocational schools for young talented dancers. It came up with the following if it helps:

[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, Postal Code]
[Email Address]
[Date]

[MP's Name]
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Dear [MP's Name],

I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing to express my concern about the impact of Value Added Tax (VAT) on private vocational schools, particularly those dedicated to the training of young, talented ballet dancers.

As you may be aware, private vocational schools play a crucial role in nurturing the talents and skills of young people who aspire to excel in specialized fields such as dance, music, and the performing arts. These institutions provide intensive, high-quality training that is often not available in the public education system. However, the imposition of VAT on these schools significantly increases the cost of education for families and can act as a substantial barrier to access.

For young ballet dancers, vocational schools are essential in providing the rigorous training needed to succeed in an extremely competitive field. The cost of training is already substantial, with families often bearing the burden of not only tuition fees but also additional expenses such as costumes, travel for performances and competitions, and specialized equipment. The added financial strain of VAT on tuition exacerbates this burden, potentially putting such training out of reach for many talented young dancers from less affluent backgrounds.

It is important to recognize that the arts contribute significantly to our culture and economy. The training provided by these schools not only helps individual students achieve their dreams but also contributes to the broader cultural landscape of our country. Ballet, and the arts in general, inspire, entertain, and bring communities together, fostering a sense of national pride and identity.

In light of these considerations, I urge you to advocate for the removal of VAT on private vocational schools, particularly those offering specialized training in the arts. By doing so, we can ensure that talented young dancers, regardless of their financial background, have the opportunity to pursue their passions and develop their skills to the fullest potential.

I believe that supporting the arts and making vocational training more accessible aligns with our shared values of promoting education, fostering talent, and enriching our cultural heritage. I sincerely hope that you will consider this issue and take action to support the future of our young dancers and the arts community at large.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. I look forward to your response and any steps you may take to address this concern.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Name]

[Raquelle]

31 minutes ago, Pointeshoesarethedream said:

I used ChatGPT asking it to write me a letter to my MP in the impact of VAT on vocational schools for young talented dancers. It came up with the following if it helps:

[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, Postal Code]
[Email Address]
[Date]

[MP's Name]
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Dear [MP's Name],

I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing to express my concern about the impact of Value Added Tax (VAT) on private vocational schools, particularly those dedicated to the training of young, talented ballet dancers.

As you may be aware, private vocational schools play a crucial role in nurturing the talents and skills of young people who aspire to excel in specialized fields such as dance, music, and the performing arts. These institutions provide intensive, high-quality training that is often not available in the public education system. However, the imposition of VAT on these schools significantly increases the cost of education for families and can act as a substantial barrier to access.

For young ballet dancers, vocational schools are essential in providing the rigorous training needed to succeed in an extremely competitive field. The cost of training is already substantial, with families often bearing the burden of not only tuition fees but also additional expenses such as costumes, travel for performances and competitions, and specialized equipment. The added financial strain of VAT on tuition exacerbates this burden, potentially putting such training out of reach for many talented young dancers from less affluent backgrounds.

It is important to recognize that the arts contribute significantly to our culture and economy. The training provided by these schools not only helps individual students achieve their dreams but also contributes to the broader cultural landscape of our country. Ballet, and the arts in general, inspire, entertain, and bring communities together, fostering a sense of national pride and identity.

In light of these considerations, I urge you to advocate for the removal of VAT on private vocational schools, particularly those offering specialized training in the arts. By doing so, we can ensure that talented young dancers, regardless of their financial background, have the opportunity to pursue their passions and develop their skills to the fullest potential.

I believe that supporting the arts and making vocational training more accessible aligns with our shared values of promoting education, fostering talent, and enriching our cultural heritage. I sincerely hope that you will consider this issue and take action to support the future of our young dancers and the arts community at large.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. I look forward to your response and any steps you may take to address this concern.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Name]

This is great! 

[Mum of unicorn dancer]

3 hours ago, Pointeshoesarethedream said:

I used ChatGPT asking it to write me a letter to my MP in the impact of VAT on vocational schools for young talented dancers. It came up with the following if it helps:

[Your Name]
[Your Address]
[City, Postal Code]
[Email Address]
[Date]

[MP's Name]
House of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Dear [MP's Name],

I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing to express my concern about the impact of Value Added Tax (VAT) on private vocational schools, particularly those dedicated to the training of young, talented ballet dancers.

As you may be aware, private vocational schools play a crucial role in nurturing the talents and skills of young people who aspire to excel in specialized fields such as dance, music, and the performing arts. These institutions provide intensive, high-quality training that is often not available in the public education system. However, the imposition of VAT on these schools significantly increases the cost of education for families and can act as a substantial barrier to access.

For young ballet dancers, vocational schools are essential in providing the rigorous training needed to succeed in an extremely competitive field. The cost of training is already substantial, with families often bearing the burden of not only tuition fees but also additional expenses such as costumes, travel for performances and competitions, and specialized equipment. The added financial strain of VAT on tuition exacerbates this burden, potentially putting such training out of reach for many talented young dancers from less affluent backgrounds.

It is important to recognize that the arts contribute significantly to our culture and economy. The training provided by these schools not only helps individual students achieve their dreams but also contributes to the broader cultural landscape of our country. Ballet, and the arts in general, inspire, entertain, and bring communities together, fostering a sense of national pride and identity.

In light of these considerations, I urge you to advocate for the removal of VAT on private vocational schools, particularly those offering specialized training in the arts. By doing so, we can ensure that talented young dancers, regardless of their financial background, have the opportunity to pursue their passions and develop their skills to the fullest potential.

I believe that supporting the arts and making vocational training more accessible aligns with our shared values of promoting education, fostering talent, and enriching our cultural heritage. I sincerely hope that you will consider this issue and take action to support the future of our young dancers and the arts community at large.

Thank you for your time and attention to this matter. I look forward to your response and any steps you may take to address this concern.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Name]

Thank you so much