Unethical ballet teachers

[EverHopeful]

I’m an adult who went to my first ever ballet class aged 26, absolutely fell in love with it and I’m now an RAD Grade 8 and Intermediate student (having achieved High Merit for grades 4/5/6, repertoire level 2 and Inter-Foundation, plus a Merit for grade 7 and a Distinction for grade 3). I go to class 4 days per week at the moment and have done so for quite a few years now. 
I feel like adult ballet does(or has previously) fall(en) into 2 categories in my personal experience - classes for fun/fitness and classes where we’re taken seriously and taught as proper students. Don’t get me wrong, I’m under absolutely NO illusion I’ll ever be a professional dancer. But I love it and I want to improve and I want to achieve good exam results. I love having something to aim for and work towards. I’ve done ok so far, and I believe other adults could too with the right determination and the right support. 
I guess in the end it all just depends on what each individual wants from class. Not just for adults but for children too - I’m sure there is the same variation across all age groups, those who want to study seriously and those who want to have fun. Both are equally valid endeavours, as long as they’re in the correct class(es) for their aims. 

[balletfanatic]

8 hours ago, LinMM said:

But why wouldn’t “keep fitters” choosing to join a ballet class not want to learn about the ballet basics? Otherwise they could have always joined the more numerous Zumba classes or step classes or other slightly more crudely named fitness classes to music ….to keep fit ….but if they’ve chosen a ballet class especially as so few offered when you get away from the major towns/cities then I’d have thought they would be very happy with the ballet basics. 

If there is “unethical teaching”

which the OP seemed worried about could it not have arisen because people have asked for ballet classes but there hasn’t been a properly qualified teacher available so a teacher with minimal

knowledge ( perhaps did for a few years as a child) has set up a class. 
 

What I’m not understanding is the scenario where a properly qualified teacher would put a beginner into a show to dance complex choreography. 
It’s okay to put a beginner into a show of course …if they want to be in it ….but surely not beyond the wit of a teacher to create some simpler choreography for them! 

I would love to know whether this teacher is qualified to teach ballet as I guess anyone can call themselves a ballet teacher. That's where the unethical comes in. 

[Jan McNulty]

12 minutes ago, balletfanatic said:

I would love to know whether this teacher is qualified to teach ballet as I guess anyone can call themselves a ballet teacher. That's where the unethical comes in. 

 

You could make enquiries to try and find out...

 

Going back to your original post was the video your friend sent taken in the class or your friend trying to practise at home?

 

Does the school she is going to offer different styles of dance?  Maybe the teacher is not a ballet specialist teacher but is filling in for someone who perhaps is off for some reason?

 

Nothing to to with ballet but Rimrose Valley Friends (RV being the park we are trying to save from destruction) is having a Wuthering Heights Day on 28th July.  We had a rehearsal on Sunday and it was hilarious.  The young dance teacher who has just come on board was excellent and very patient but there were some very mixed results.  For us, it doesn't matter though.

[balletfanatic]

20 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

You could make enquiries to try and find out...

 

Going back to your original post was the video your friend sent taken in the class or your friend trying to practise at home?

 

Does the school she is going to offer different styles of dance?  Maybe the teacher is not a ballet specialist teacher but is filling in for someone who perhaps is off for some reason?

 

Nothing to to with ballet but Rimrose Valley Friends (RV being the park we are trying to save from destruction) is having a Wuthering Heights Day on 28th July.  We had a rehearsal on Sunday and it was hilarious.  The young dance teacher who has just come on board was excellent and very patient but there were some very mixed results.  For us, it doesn't matter though.

I'm not sure about the school but the video was a rehearsal for this show - I think filmed by the teacher. 

[Ruby Foo]

44 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

You could make enquiries to try and find out...

 

Going back to your original post was the video your friend sent taken in the class or your friend trying to practise at home?

 

Does the school she is going to offer different styles of dance?  Maybe the teacher is not a ballet specialist teacher but is filling in for someone who perhaps is off for some reason?

 

Nothing to to with ballet but Rimrose Valley Friends (RV being the park we are trying to save from destruction) is having a Wuthering Heights Day on 28th July.  We had a rehearsal on Sunday and it was hilarious.  The young dance teacher who has just come on board was excellent and very patient but there were some very mixed results.  For us, it doesn't matter though.

It wouldn't matter that a ' ballet show'

looked a bit ropey at the rehearsals  or at the actual performances, that's all part of the fun.

What matters is that the choreography is appropriate to the level of the dancers and, if it's ballet, the steps, no matter how simple, have been taught properly. That includes 'ballet' walking and running.

[Ruby Foo]

9 hours ago, EverHopeful said:

I’m an adult who went to my first ever ballet class aged 26, absolutely fell in love with it and I’m now an RAD Grade 8 and Intermediate student (having achieved High Merit for grades 4/5/6, repertoire level 2 and Inter-Foundation, plus a Merit for grade 7 and a Distinction for grade 3). I go to class 4 days per week at the moment and have done so for quite a few years now. 
I feel like adult ballet does(or has previously) fall(en) into 2 categories in my personal experience - classes for fun/fitness and classes where we’re taken seriously and taught as proper students. Don’t get me wrong, I’m under absolutely NO illusion I’ll ever be a professional dancer. But I love it and I want to improve and I want to achieve good exam results. I love having something to aim for and work towards. I’ve done ok so far, and I believe other adults could too with the right determination and the right support. 
I guess in the end it all just depends on what each individual wants from class. Not just for adults but for children too - I’m sure there is the same variation across all age groups, those who want to study seriously and those who want to have fun. Both are equally valid endeavours, as long as they’re in the correct class(es) for their aims. 

 

Congratulations on all you've accomplished! Fabulous.

But ballet for ' fun' still needs to be taught properly. Just because it's basic technique does not mean it can't be 'fun'.

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

You could make enquiries to try and find out...

 

Going back to your original post was the video your friend sent taken in the class or your friend trying to practise at home?

 

Does the school she is going to offer different styles of dance?  Maybe the teacher is not a ballet specialist teacher but is filling in for someone who perhaps is off for some reason?

 

Nothing to to with ballet but Rimrose Valley Friends (RV being the park we are trying to save from destruction) is having a Wuthering Heights Day on 28th July.  We had a rehearsal on Sunday and it was hilarious.  The young dance teacher who has just come on board was excellent and very patient but there were some very mixed results.  For us, it doesn't matter though.

 
Good Luck for your show Jan. Sounds like fun.

[The_Red_Shoes]

I must say that in many years of taking adult ballet classes I have only once come across a class that I found a bit odd in terms of what was being taught and how. I think the problem is that it's very hard for adult beginners to find a class that begins at the very beginning. If there is only one general adult class then the majority can't be expected to go back to the very beginning every time someone new joins, and this does leave beginners scrabbling to keep up. However, I can honestly say that all the classes I have ever attended had clear teaching points, progression and what I might call general corrections as well as the teacher answering  questions and explaining technique clearly. I have found that generally even those just aiming for fun and/or fitness still want to learn ballet correctly to the best of their ability.

[Colman]

37 minutes ago, The_Red_Shoes said:

I must say that in many years of taking adult ballet classes I have only once come across a class that I found a bit odd in terms of what was being taught and how.

I think I've seen two where I wasn't happy at all.

 

37 minutes ago, The_Red_Shoes said:

I think the problem is that it's very hard for adult beginners to find a class that begins at the very beginning.

Again, the economics of this are awful outside big cities. One of the classes I'm doing at the moment is a proper beginners class at a school in Dublin city centre that has a big enough constituency to fill 15 person open classes in July - mostly because they're the pretty much the only adult classes still running! The beginners' class is much smaller - 8 the other day with me and one recent returnee to ballet who must have been nearly pre-pro. I'm not aware of any other classes normally that aren't much more mixed ability. (I like beginner classes, they're a chance to work on basics and strength, and I'm doing the open class as well.) Out in the suburbs you pretty much have to have a mixed ability class and be careful not to bore the "improvers" or whatever you want to call them.

 

[Kate_N]

4 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

But ballet for ' fun' still needs to be taught properly. Just because it's basic technique does not mean it can't be 'fun'.

 

Well, as all teachers know, there's a limited connection between teaching & learning: you can teach something correctly. It doesn't mean the pupil will execute it correctly.

[Kate_N]

2 hours ago, Colman said:

Out in the suburbs you pretty much have to have a mixed ability class and be careful not to bore the "improvers" or whatever you want to call them.

 

 

Yes! Down here in the deep South(West), I manage by using my local class as the basics, and I get to dance properly with various favourite London teachers. And for me, with half of a sort of pre-pro training, the basics can still be difficult and humbling.

Edited July 17 by Kate_N

[Peanut68]

Our regular teacher taking a break…. We all internally groaned when the regular stand-in is taking over…. It’s basically a show off session for her….and frankly dangerous for even the more advanced ones of us in the class if we ever tried to replicate her moves (which tbh are not actually done with particularly great technique either IMHO) They are incredibly lean (I’m airing on side of politeness) & flexible. The class is too fast, too advanced, too showy for teacher alone & therefore dull, depressing & dangerous. I’m almost pleased now I twisted my ankle in last class to have a legitimate reason to not attend (as hate not being supportive of school with my time & money as classes are pay as you go) I completely cringe as complete beginners are expected to tackle crazy advanced stuff on demiponte at barre with no regard by (unqualified & as far as I can tell not ever a pro dancer or necessarily pro-trained as one either - just maintained their own rigorous schedule of self training for decades I believe) for their health & welfare. 
It’s a real shame that penny hasn’t  dropped at how class numbers plummet with this stand in ‘teacher’….

I hate to be negative & have nothing personally against said individual but I do feel we deserve better. But back to the old ballet politics….not one of us have the guts to raise it with them (well one tried once & there’s like a Mexican Stand-off now between them 😂) or more importantly with the school principal. 
But we will be voting with our slightly turned in & rolling feet when our knees start hurting more most likely! 

[NeverTooOld]

15 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Our regular teacher taking a break…. We all internally groaned when the regular stand-in is taking over…. It’s basically a show off session for her….and frankly dangerous for even the more advanced ones of us in the class if we ever tried to replicate her moves (which tbh are not actually done with particularly great technique either IMHO) They are incredibly lean (I’m airing on side of politeness) & flexible. The class is too fast, too advanced, too showy for teacher alone & therefore dull, depressing & dangerous. I’m almost pleased now I twisted my ankle in last class to have a legitimate reason to not attend (as hate not being supportive of school with my time & money as classes are pay as you go) I completely cringe as complete beginners are expected to tackle crazy advanced stuff on demiponte at barre with no regard by (unqualified & as far as I can tell not ever a pro dancer or necessarily pro-trained as one either - just maintained their own rigorous schedule of self training for decades I believe) for their health & welfare. 
It’s a real shame that penny hasn’t  dropped at how class numbers plummet with this stand in ‘teacher’….

I hate to be negative & have nothing personally against said individual but I do feel we deserve better. But back to the old ballet politics….not one of us have the guts to raise it with them (well one tried once & there’s like a Mexican Stand-off now between them 😂) or more importantly with the school principal. 
But we will be voting with our slightly turned in & rolling feet when our knees start hurting more most likely! 

Really sorry to hear that, sounds awful! Even worse that you feel you can't speak up about it. With my business head on, I would want to know if my customers were not happy about something so I could fix it but this often doesn't seem to happen in the ballet world which is a real shame. I hope things get back to normal for you soon

[Colman]

8 minutes ago, NeverTooOld said:

Even worse that you feel you can't speak up about it. With my business head on, I would want to know if my customers were not happy about something so I could fix it but this often doesn't seem to happen in the ballet world which is a real shame.

I think it's exactly because everyone in this house is self employed* that I'm inclined to let the boss know when there's a problem that's clearly affecting most of the class, especially if I think there's a safety issue. A drop off in numbers in summertime may be interpreted as people taking holidays. 

 

(* And I'm old and cranky and male and was never socialised into the ballet world when I was young.)

[Peanut68]

I laughed at your last point Colman! Tbh, often the school closed completely over School Summer holidays so I guess any adult class still being taught is still a bonus….I perhaps should be less judged!

[Colman]

2 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

.I perhaps should be less judged!

Why? If it's not up to scratch, it's not.

[Peanut68]

I realise I’d not checked my typing & should edit to ‘I should perhaps be less judgemental’ 

Apologies 

[Angela Essex]

@LinMM according to my teacher the “keep fitters” take offence at corrections and/or are not physically fit enough to deal with how she teaches the more serious students. She said if she taught them how she teaches the adult exam classes they would not come back and then she would have no adult ballet class. 

[LinMM]

Maybe it just depends what’s available locally then ….only it isn’t very often adult ballet classes!!
There are usually such a lot of classes on offer for “keep fitters” not necessarily after acquiring any particular skills to go to …so don’t know why they would sign up for ballet classes if not interested!!

Unless …more unusually ….there were not many other classes on offer. 

People keen on studying for and wanting to pass exams are entirely different from more casual adult learners though so would expect the style of class to necessarily be very different. 

 

[DVDfan]

If I did a ballet class (which I don't) I wouldn't be able to do some of the corrections because of my various physical issues.  

I'd have a similar problem with a keep fit class,  though. 

 

However, that may be another reason why some adults don't want individual corrections. 

[Colman]

27 minutes ago, DVDfan said:

However, that may be another reason why some adults don't want individual corrections.

Sure, and that’s something a teacher should know and help adapt around. Everyone has physical limitations they have to deal with when it comes to something as exacting as ballet! 

[Colman]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

so don’t know why they would sign up for ballet classes if not interested!!

Perhaps because it’s the thing they can drag themselves off the couch for.  I absolutely will not do things like running or going to the gym, I need something to engage me mentally. So maybe the aesthetic and music and the wafting about is what they need.

 

Come to think of it, I don’t think I know any male ballet dancers who aren’t pretty serious. 

[DVDfan]

Well, you'd hope a teacher would know and know how to adapt to one's physical limitations, but I don't know how often I had to tell my keep fit teacher that my right foot is at an angle to my right knee...

 

Besides, then you get the fill in teacher who doesn't know you.

[The_Red_Shoes]

I think there are a number of different groups of people taking adult ballet and I don't think it would be fair to imply that people doing it as an enjoyable fitness activity are to be considered only as cash cows while those of us taking exams are the real students! I have found such other students to be perfectly keen and committed, enjoying the experience of gaining new skills while moving to beautiful music and working their brains as well as their glutes.It's like most children taking ballet classes, who aren't aiming for a career in ballet. Their needs are validly different and a good teacher is going to need to find a way to meet them all. I accept that for detailed coaching I need to attend an exam class or a private lesson.

 

From what I notice, many coming from a background of lots of fitness stuff aren't finding it so hard to find the right muscles physically. But they have huge difficulties with arms and head, space and directions and remembering and coordinating enchainments. And turns.

[The_Red_Shoes]

14 minutes ago, DVDfan said:

Well, you'd hope a teacher would know and know how to adapt to one's physical limitations, but I don't know how often I had to tell my keep fit teacher that my right foot is at an angle to my right knee...

 

Besides, then you get the fill in teacher who doesn't know you.

My daughter is a yoga teacher and takes detailed notes of student's physical issues but is horrified by the way that many gyms keep no records and she's not informed when standing in. She teaches very inclusively with people in chairs as well as doing the full versions.

 

It's important, I think, that teachers don't just say "Do what you can." They need to provide and teach an alternative setting, especially for less experienced dancers who can't just create their own choreography!

Edited July 22 by The_Red_Shoes
Posted too soon

[LinMM]

Well I certainly wasn’t implying anybody is a “cash cow”and only exam students are the real ones in my post!! 
( I really hope it did not come across this way!!) 

I was just pointing out ( in a reply to another post above) …where the teacher was having problems with some students not able to take corrections ….that the needs would not be the same for differently motivated dancers  so a different style of class would be needed to meet those different needs. 
A more casual learner can still enjoy learning  the basics of ballet but perhaps in a more “dancey”  way. 
And may not need to learn the exacting precision of some steps etc as you would for taking an exam or just more serious about the Art. 

There are so many different reasons anyway why an adult is choosing to do ballet not just keep fitters and exam takers!! 
Where corrections are concerned most teachers I’ve worked with ( as in yoga too) will make a point of asking if anyone has injuries or other particular problems and are only too happy for you to adapt where necessary and show what you can do differently if needed. 
However I did say “most” you do get the occasional one who can’t adapt their teaching or correcting to the dancers in front of them. 
It’s no good treating everybody as if auditioning for a Vaganova school place!! 
I also suspect it’s only the odd person who although only casual won’t accept any correction from the teacher…. it’s certainly not what I’ve seen in various classes of mixed ability

most beginners are the opposite …keen to have corrections…at least they feel they’ve been noticed. 

 

Edited July 22 by LinMM

[LinMM]

It’s very interesting being a Silver Swan Improver these days just looking at the mix of dancers in just one class. 
There are those who’ve only being taking ballet classes for one or two years so just past beginner level. 
These dancers find enchainements difficult as putting steps together is not second nature to them. 

There are those coming from a long gap but did ballet as a child (often to intermediate level) but a very long time ago but these dancers do have the basics and are usually keen to increase technique levels! 
There are those ( such as myself) who have a lot of ballet experience gathered over the years on and off so enchainements are not a problem but age is now genuinely preventing them from executing certain steps properly!! 
( very frustrating) 

The two teachers whose Silver Swans I attend in Brighton and London are just genius at somehow managing to meet all the dancers needs!! 
The London teacher will sometimes show three versions of just part of an enchainment to make gradations and she also knows that old hands like myself are capable of adapting choreography and others are not yet. 
I do attend a couple of non silver swans classes as well…..but only with teachers I know these days because I know they are adaptable and I’ve attended their classes for some years now. 
It’s a funny position to be in after taking ballet as an Art just so so seriously in the past that now I am sort of going backwards I just want to dance and enjoy myself and try to find the dance quality in the simplest of exercises or Pieces as cannot worry so much about technique any more ….though am still happy to be corrected!! 
 

 

 

[Peggydancer]

On 13/07/2024 at 15:24, Colman said:

Some people are just looking for a more interesting keep fit class and some want to try and perfect technique. It’s hard for teachers to reconcile the two - many adults really don’t like corrections - and there are bills to pay. 

I think there might be some truth in this. Though I think it’s possible to instil as much of the correct technique as possible all the same.

 

In my opinion the adult ballet schools who let the students dance up in grades/levels they don’t have the technique for is when lack of technique really begins to show.  The students think they’re better than they are because they don’t understand the technique and they receive little/no personal correction. They’re often shocked (those who take exams as adults) when they scrape a basic pass or don’t attain standard.

 

Also adults being allowed en pointe, having never done ballet before, after only a year or two.  That was a dreadful thing to witness, though they were at the barre only.

[Peggydancer]

On 17/07/2024 at 14:12, Kate_N said:

 

Yes! Down here in the deep South(West), I manage by using my local class as the basics, and I get to dance properly with various favourite London teachers. And for me, with half of a sort of pre-pro training, the basics can still be difficult and humbling.

That’s how I approach adult ballet.  I dance with a few schools.

 

 I’m trying to get back to the intermediate standard of my youth (as much as is possible) before I’m too old! 

[The_Red_Shoes]

As an Old, Old dancer I find that despite regular work my technique has fallen off in the last couple of years and i just can't regain past standards where it comes up against a hard barrier of just plain physical incapacity. However I can still gain in understanding of technique and some aspects do still improve even where placement is concerned. And one can always grow in quality, musicality and, expressivity.  And I am very well aware that I wouldn't be able to maintain this level of stamina, mobility and joie de vivre in my life in general without my ballet classes, for which I am eternally grateful!

Edited July 22 by The_Red_Shoes
Typos

[LinMM]

It’s trying to do steps like a really good Grand jete en tournant …a lovely big jump (which is sometimes called something else) and which I used to love doing but now  daren’t turn in the air and land on one leg (especially the left side with dodgy hip and ankle) 

I just do a sort of Grand Battement hop facing the direction of travel so I can control the landing more when this is set….especially as it’s often a series across the room not just one!!! 
 
Some of the younger Silver Swans (those still in late 50’s) can jump really well even if more at beginner level some positively bouncing around!!  Whereas I’m lucky to get an inch off the floor nowadays which makes it harder to do beats. 
Still as @The_Red_Shoes says above one can still try to perfect certain aspects of the technique …like the beauty of the ronde de jambe a terre for one example and still work on  qualities of expression and using the music well etc. and have a little more largesse of movement where can …..and make the absolute most of waltzy balance’s when they do turn up lol!!