balletfanatic Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 A friend of mine has started ballet for the first time as an adult beginner. Her teacher has asked her to perform in a show after a few weeks of lessons. She's dancing a solo from a ballet (I'm not sure which one but it's quite complex and at least a few minutes long). She sent me a video and not surprisingly her technique is absolutely incorrect all the way through. It got me thinking why do some ballet teachers encourage this? If I learnt piano for the first time as an adult I wouldn't expect to perform Mozart on stage within a few weeks! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 This would make me have doubts about the school as a whole. Perhaps your friend should look elsewhere. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Foo Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 A little while ago I went to a beginners adult ballet class. It was basically to get some exercise whilst doing something I love. I obviously didn't say I was an ex dancer/ teacher. I wasn't there to judge, just happy to be doing something active and local. I was pretty shocked at the lack of understanding of the basic technique by the teacher tbh. and couldn't go back or endorse it further. The teacher wasn't doing anything seriously wrong as such but she was missing out all of the basic elements such as use of the floor and the feet in tendu for example or use of turn out. What was being condoned was a very, very diluted form of Ballet which resulted in adults floating about doing not very much at all and certainly no idea of the basic elements or qualities of ballet. The result was that everyone else in the class loved it ( from the conversations in the changing room afterwards) and believed they were doing ballet. As ballet is supposed to be enjoyable then maybe this hits the brief and gives people a chance to experience something similar to ballet. But it's definitely not Ballet and with regards to adults en pointe it's a definite no from me. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 2 hours ago, Ruby Foo said: But it's definitely not Ballet and with regards to adults en pointe it's a definite no from me. Could you clarify that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 3 hours ago, balletfanatic said: Her teacher has asked her to perform in a show after a few weeks of lessons Performing in a corps piece would be ok, so long as she’s in the right place at the right time she’s getting the experience of being on stage. She’s not going to learn much from dancing a solo badly, I wouldn’t think. How does she feel about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 2 hours ago, Ruby Foo said: But it's definitely not Ballet and with regards to adults en pointe it's a definite no from me. Some people are just looking for a more interesting keep fit class and some want to try and perfect technique. It’s hard for teachers to reconcile the two - many adults really don’t like corrections - and there are bills to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peony Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Are they a qualified teacher? What sort of show is it? Perhaps they just give everyone a bash at doing their own solos? Perhaps your friend was really keen to do it? I think there’s 2 elements here- technique and performance. Perhaps your friend is really good at the musicality and performance aspect? A lot of adults never perform which really is a crucial part of ballet but a lot of people seem happy to go without that so I guess they are just doing things a different way around. Hopefully they are working on technique at the same time. There are kids up and down the country doing a less than perfect technical job of dances and piano recital etc but we still see a benefit in that as they’re learning lots of other skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peony Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 I’m also wondering why adults can’t be on pointe as well? Nobody missed out on trying pointe if they reached the required level of training in my daughter’s class, why any different for adults? Safety has to be important but let’s face it most who are en pointe are not about to get into vocational ballet school! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletfanatic Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 4 hours ago, Peony said: Are they a qualified teacher? What sort of show is it? Perhaps they just give everyone a bash at doing their own solos? Perhaps your friend was really keen to do it? I think there’s 2 elements here- technique and performance. Perhaps your friend is really good at the musicality and performance aspect? A lot of adults never perform which really is a crucial part of ballet but a lot of people seem happy to go without that so I guess they are just doing things a different way around. Hopefully they are working on technique at the same time. There are kids up and down the country doing a less than perfect technical job of dances and piano recital etc but we still see a benefit in that as they’re learning lots of other skills. She definitely thinks she's excellent but I personally think it's unethical to teach beginner adults and not teach them the basics just throw them straight into the deep end way out of their depth. Surely to avoid injury and to make proper progress they should always start with the basics and build up slowly and surely from there. Otherwise just call it exercise to music rather than adult ballet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 May I just ask if the teacher provides a variety of ballet classes for a variety of ages? I was just wondering because I keep seeing adverts for Ballet Fit classes at a variety of places near me that base their classes around ballet but they are not actually saying you learn ballet. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dancing unicorn Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) I started to ask the same question, then deleted! I was wondering exactly the same thing! Is it a ‘so called’ ballet fit class where the teacher has actually no training in ballet! These popped up on Facebook a while ago, and I did wonder about them 😡 Edited July 13 by Dancing unicorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletfanatic Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 It's definitely adult ballet as they are learning and performing solos from well known ballets. I have no problem with "ballet fit" but I do have a problem with adult ballet that starts with teaching repertoire the class is absolutely nowhere near ready for. I can't help feeling it downgrades ballet by giving the impression you only need a handful of lessons before you can tackle these famous solos! I've been dancing for 40 years and wouldn't dream of dancing these on stage! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 If it’s proper rep as opposed to something appropriately choreographed, then yeah, that’s a bit weird. Not sure I’d call it unethical, but I’m not sure I see the point. I’d don’t think you need to be super good to do (simplified) versions of rep, even on stage, but I don’t see what you’re learning if you can’t do the steps at all or understand your limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chira Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 I think if the dancers in the class are having fun, not running the risk of being injured, not having to pass an exam, going back each week for more; then doing a piece of rep albeit technical incorrect for me doesn’t matter. Is your friend enjoying herself are the other adults in the class have a great time. Is the teacher misleading her class in anyway is she pretending this is ‘real ballet’? Does it matter? The same goes for the piano, or any instrument you can play a classical piece as a beginner and still really enjoy it whilst not being Glenn Gould. All choreography can be simplified and perfection is not always the end goal. For me I am reminded of the happiness I used to see watching children in our local school hall skipping and twirling and jumping around to Tchaikovsky in leotards and tutus, this sounds like adults enjoying a bit of the same. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by ‘unethical’ there is no moral dilemma here that I can fathom. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletfanatic Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chira said: I think if the dancers in the class are having fun, not running the risk of being injured, not having to pass an exam, going back each week for more; then doing a piece of rep albeit technical incorrect for me doesn’t matter. Is your friend enjoying herself are the other adults in the class have a great time. Is the teacher misleading her class in anyway is she pretending this is ‘real ballet’? Does it matter? The same goes for the piano, or any instrument you can play a classical piece as a beginner and still really enjoy it whilst not being Glenn Gould. All choreography can be simplified and perfection is not always the end goal. For me I am reminded of the happiness I used to see watching children in our local school hall skipping and twirling and jumping around to Tchaikovsky in leotards and tutus, this sounds like adults enjoying a bit of the same. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by ‘unethical’ there is no moral dilemma here that I can fathom. OK unethical is putting it too strongly but I personally believe it's a form of dance where you have to start with the basics of technique before moving on. You risk injury otherwise and how can you really make progress if you've learnt it all wrong to begin with. I can't imagine an adult beginner pianist being encouraged to perform Mozart in front of an audience after a few weeks as it would surely sound awful but maybe it does happen too. I personally think performing ballet all wrong looks awful and shouldn't be encouraged by a professional teacher. I wouldn't be surprised if this class is on pointe next - I've seen that happen all too often too. Edited July 14 by balletfanatic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 42 minutes ago, balletfanatic said: can't imagine an adult beginner pianist being encouraged to perform Mozart in front of an audience after a few weeks as it would surely sound awful but maybe it does happen too. I personally think performing ballet all wrong looks awful Well, maybe a simplified melody from something. 44 minutes ago, balletfanatic said: I personally think performing ballet all wrong looks awful and shouldn't be encouraged by a professional teacher Just standing up in front of an audience is a skill that has to be learned too. No point doing a theatrical dance form if you’re never in theatre, to my way of thinking. But something suitable to your level! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletfanatic Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 37 minutes ago, Colman said: Well, maybe a simplified melody from something. Just standing up in front of an audience is a skill that has to be learned too. No point doing a theatrical dance form if you’re never in theatre, to my way of thinking. But something suitable to your level! Suitable to your level - exactly and after learning at least basic technique! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Since there’s often only one chance to perform a year, I’d forgive a newbie being rushed into a corps piece if they joined late in the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeting Violinist Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 2 hours ago, balletfanatic said: OK unethical is putting it too strongly but I personally believe it's a form of dance where you have to start with the basics of technique before moving on. You risk injury otherwise and how can you really make progress if you've learnt it all wrong to begin with. I can't imagine an adult beginner pianist being encouraged to perform Mozart in front of an audience after a few weeks as it would surely sound awful but maybe it does happen too. I personally think performing ballet all wrong looks awful and shouldn't be encouraged by a professional teacher. I wouldn't be surprised if this class is on pointe next - I've seen that happen all too often too. Beginner musicians are routinely encouraged to perform in front of an audience if they are in proper training. It doesn't matter if they're far from perfect, there is simply no other way to learn performing skills. Having said that, playing music is not physically dangerous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 2 minutes ago, Trumpeting Violinist said: Having said that, playing music is not physically dangerous. Neither is a bit of turning pas de waltz and a couple of little temps leve with a bit of port de bras. Which is as much as I’d expect to see from a beginner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletfanatic Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 7 minutes ago, Colman said: Neither is a bit of turning pas de waltz and a couple of little temps leve with a bit of port de bras. Which is as much as I’d expect to see from a beginner. This dance is way more than that - it's a solo with some advanced steps including pirouettes and other turns. You have to be taught how to do them properly or they just look awful and risk injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 11 minutes ago, balletfanatic said: This dance is way more than that - it's a solo with some advanced steps including pirouettes and other turns. You have to be taught how to do them properly or they just look awful and risk injury. I wouldn’t have done that. I did two bars of a (simple) solo in my first few years but that’s because the ladies needed to collect some props after the first part of the piece so something needed to happen on stage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadowblythe Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 1 hour ago, Trumpeting Violinist said: Beginner musicians are routinely encouraged to perform in front of an audience if they are in proper training. It doesn't matter if they're far from perfect, there is simply no other way to learn performing skills. Having said that, playing music is not physically dangerous. Even then, it has to be a positive experience or it defeats the whole object of the exercise. I have lost count of the number of times a small pianist attempted something beyond their technical capability and it all ends in tears, No, it doesn't have to be perfect but it does have to be something they can play. Similarly parents complaining that the child who won was playing a much simpler piece than their offspring. Yes, but they played it well and it was a joy to witness the performance. In both dance and music festivals, "neat and tidy'" seems to be a good place to start .. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeting Violinist Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 (edited) 36 minutes ago, meadowblythe said: Even then, it has to be a positive experience or it defeats the whole object of the exercise. I have lost count of the number of times a small pianist attempted something beyond their technical capability and it all ends in tears, No, it doesn't have to be perfect but it does have to be something they can play. Similarly parents complaining that the child who won was playing a much simpler piece than their offspring. Yes, but they played it well and it was a joy to witness the performance. In both dance and music festivals, "neat and tidy'" seems to be a good place to start .. I'm not talking about competitions and not sure the OP was about a festival - not everyone participates in them anyway, and I read the post as "performing in the school's show". At DD's local music school, they've been playing solos every term since they were 5 or 6, it was often a pain to listen to them 😂 - student violins are more dreadful than student dancers, but it was mandatory and their reports were based on the concerts as well as lessons. Ballet is different of course, but I wish DD had as many dance performing opportunities as she had in music. It definitely helps to develop as a performing artist. Adult beginners cannot aspire for a career in ballet, but building stage confidence is not a bad thing generally. Edited July 14 by Trumpeting Violinist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 On 13/07/2024 at 11:31, balletfanatic said: Her teacher has asked her to perform in a show after a few weeks of lessons. She's dancing a solo from a ballet (I'm not sure which one but it's quite complex and at least a few minutes long). She sent me a video and not surprisingly her technique is absolutely incorrect all the way through. It got me thinking why do some ballet teachers encourage this? The local studio I do adult ballet class at always involves adults in the end of year performance if they want to dance on stage. It's about participation, and showing that if they want to & put in the effort in learning choreography & rehearsing, anyone can perform. But then this particular studio is all about participation & community. My teacher is excellent, but frankly doesn't fully correct adult dancers & I sometimes wince. But I know, from talking to ballet teacher friends, that increasingly, they are finding some adults are averse to corrections & are doing class "just for fun" and take offence at being corrected. One teacher friend teaches adult beginners at a fairly well known New York professional studio, and says he no longer does individual corrections unless he knows the student - when I did class there in April, he was on my case! He knows I love corrections. I think it's sad that this is the state of things, and yet - if adults just want to waft about lyrically to music, and "express themselves", why shouldn't they? It's not my preference, but they're never going to be professionals, and if they do it for pleasure & health, who am I to think it shouldn't happen? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 I don't participate because I don't like being mediocre in public! But sometimes I wonder if I'm being too purist. It's hard when I've grown up with actual dance professionals in the family ... ! But I'm not going to let my purism overshadow what might be really enjoyable for someone without that sort of standard to compare herself to. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 (edited) 2 hours ago, Kate_N said: One teacher friend teaches adult beginners at a fairly well known New York professional studio, and says he no longer does individual corrections unless he knows the student We generally make a point to tell teachers we don’t know that corrections are why we’re there. (Actually, I’ve just realised I didn’t give a new teacher that talk, will have to this week!) Edited July 14 by Colman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 2 hours ago, Kate_N said: But sometimes I wonder if I'm being too purist. It's hard when I've grown up with actual dance professionals in the family ... You’re being too purist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletfanatic Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 4 hours ago, Kate_N said: The local studio I do adult ballet class at always involves adults in the end of year performance if they want to dance on stage. It's about participation, and showing that if they want to & put in the effort in learning choreography & rehearsing, anyone can perform. But then this particular studio is all about participation & community. My teacher is excellent, but frankly doesn't fully correct adult dancers & I sometimes wince. But I know, from talking to ballet teacher friends, that increasingly, they are finding some adults are averse to corrections & are doing class "just for fun" and take offence at being corrected. One teacher friend teaches adult beginners at a fairly well known New York professional studio, and says he no longer does individual corrections unless he knows the student - when I did class there in April, he was on my case! He knows I love corrections. I think it's sad that this is the state of things, and yet - if adults just want to waft about lyrically to music, and "express themselves", why shouldn't they? It's not my preference, but they're never going to be professionals, and if they do it for pleasure & health, who am I to think it shouldn't happen? For me I think ballet done really badly with no technique is worse than other forms of dance done badly. I've seen beginners doing tap and street dance on stage and making a good attempt and looking good but bad ballet is really bad and looks absolutely awful. That's just my opinion. I still stand by my comment that you need the basics in technique before attempting a difficult solo eg you need to know pirouette position and which way to turn and how to releve - it's a bad teacher that allows an adult on stage dancing a solo without these basics. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVDfan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 To return to the original post for a moment, it is unethical if it is being mis-sold, i.e. if most of the class think they are learning ballet technique when that is not what is happening due to the failings of the teacher and not to their own short-comings as pupils. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVDfan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 It is not literally true that you cannot injure yourself with poor technique playing a musical instrument. Brass and woodwind players have to be taught correctly or they can suffer mouth and throat problems (as can singers). My youngest was taught a brass instrument incorrectly and now cannot play due to a throat problem. However, this has little impact on his daily life, whereas a hip, knee or back injury could be crippling. Dance does offer a whole different level of risk, obviously. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Foo Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) On 13/07/2024 at 15:15, Colman said: Could you clarify that? I can repeat what I wrote in another post. To be able to ballet correctly, it takes years and years of careful, detailed preparation of the muscles and joints, which starts with the understanding in the mind. To train the mind to send different messages than what it's used to. To take grown bodies with all their many issues and try to make twist themselves into mostly unattainable positions and movement without a clear understanding of the underlying technique is dangerous. We all know it's HOW you get from a to b that counts in Ballet. And to think that even the basic building blocks could be acquired in one mere lesson per week would be highly unlikely given that adults have spent many more years using their minds to control their bodies in a ' normal' way. Floating and wafting round the room is one thing but doing a full barre ( even basic) is another, if things like turning out from the hip is not explained properly and weight placement is not explained precisely and reminders made in every exercise, every week. To think that an adult who has never danced before and doing an hours class a week could then go on to build all the correct muscles and skills and understanding and control of weight placement and resistance, to transfer their bare minimum technique on to a tiny block, doesn't bear thinking about. I'm not against adults having fun in a ballet based class but let's not pretend this is ballet unless it's built up properly with the correct technique and please, no pointe work which is a complete safety concern for the reasons above. Edited July 15 by Ruby Foo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I don’t know many adults doing an hour a week trying to do pointe. I know plenty of adults who are doing six, twelve, twenty hours a week and doing external conditioning work too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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