Flat turnout corrected all the time - what to do?

[Trumpeting Violinist]

11 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

One area that hasn't been mentioned is that young people today have not the same physical development as in previous generations. Instead of playing outside, hopscotch, tree climbing, riding bikes, walking to school, doing school sports, etc etc, they spend too much time in car seats and being driven to places. Many teachers I know have said that modern children are a couple of years behind in ability and coordination. My own particular "light bulb" moment was realising that a simple skill such as tying a bow, normally learnt by the age of five before velcro was invented, is now only learnt several years later. So I do believe that ballet training needs to be aware of this problem. Do children who have a more traditional environment end up with an advantage?

This is so true, irrespective of ballet. I'm a qualified neuropsychologist and I was taught early motor development was crucial to brain development in general. 

[Aurora3]

I certainly wouldn´t sign up for any program, which approach contradicts Vaganova! Where are you located, in London? I can recommend NK Balletschool, Natalia Kremen is a very caring and great teacher! There is a Vocational program also!

 

[Dance*is*life]

On 13/06/2024 at 08:50, Pas de Quatre said:

I can't help wondering whether the rhythmic gymnastics training is playing a large part in  this.  Over the years I have had various pupils who did gymnastic training, which involves much longer hours than ballet.  All were very flexible but had no strength to hold positions. They were also lop sided as they always train on the better side rather than training both equally as in correct ballet classes. So one leg would go up "round the ears", the other barely above 90 degrees!

Absolutely Pas de Quatre.  We have a student who came to us last year having hurt her back in rhythmic gymnastics.   Exactly the same thing - strength to hold her right leg in high extensions front and side, but not her left leg.   Plus the right leg went round her ears but wasn't turned out.   She is tremendously talented, but had to work really, really hard to strengthen her extensions standing on her right leg.   She's still a bit lop sided - 4 pirouettes to the right and just about a double to the left, so finds it frustrating to say the least, both by my corrections and her limitations.   It's such a shame, but she's only just 14 and recently passed RAD Inter with Distinction, so she's getting there!   @Trumpeting Violinist, I remember my very first class at RBS all these decades later.  I presume I must have been a good dancer to be accepted in the first place, but the teacher completely corrected my stance, told me to hold it and I nearly fell flat on my face!   Very often, students think they're doing everything correctly but discover they're not.  My gut feeling is that if everywhere she goes teachers are correcting her turnout, then it might be worth taking that seriously and checking why......

 

 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

Thank you @Dance*is*life DD never thinks she does everything correctly, she is well used to endless corrections and overcoming frustration through her violin studies, also used to different teachers both in music and dance. Violin is not so physically taxing, but mentally it's probably harder to cope with than ballet, at least for a child at this level. Discipline, perseverance, hard work are a set of skills in themselves and I don't think DD lacks in training here 😁

 

To me it looks more like a case of very different approaches to teaching classical ballet. She receives turnout corrections on short-term and performance-based courses and I'm not sure how carefully the teachers there look into each student's muscles and joints - I'm not saying they don't, but they spend less time with the students than their local schools teachers. Plus, they certainly do not expect a flat turnout in young students as the majority are not being taught this way. I also notice from this thread there is a lot of negativity about Vaganova - again, I'm not saying this is unjustified, I just see it as a fact that may also play some part.

 

Personally, I would be very interested to see if MOBA teachers correct her turnout, that would be a second opinion within the same system.

 

Re. RG - for us it was the other way round, first ballet then gymnastics just as an athletics supplement. I've been reading other forums on differences between RG and ballet stretch, splits and other technical differences since starting this topic so that was definitely useful.

 

DD was diagnosed as hypermobile at 4 but a mild to moderate case. She still has to work a lot on her stretch so I presume develops her proprioception while doing this. My older child is severely hypermobile (never did any dance or sport and would be unable to btw) so I know what to look out for.

Edited June 23 by Trumpeting Violinist

[Trumpeting Violinist]

Also, I was thinking about comments "children should not start training before 6" etc - I suppose I cannot post videos here but it's absolutely normal for Gypsy children to do what I guess would be similar to professional tap dance. They never go to the studio, it's just a natural and cultural thing - and very ordinary too. I cannot imagine doing plie at the barre to be more taxing for knees and ankles than high level tap dance.

[Mumof1]

2 hours ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

Thank you @Dance*is*life DD never thinks she does everything correctly, she is well used to endless corrections and overcoming frustration through her violin studies, also used to different teachers both in music and dance. Violin is not so physically taxing, but mentally it's probably harder to cope with than ballet, at least for a child at this level. Discipline, perseverance, hard work are a set of skills in themselves and I don't think DD lacks in training here 😁

 

To me it looks more like a case of very different approaches to teaching classical ballet. She receives turnout corrections on short-term and performance-based courses and I'm not sure how carefully the teachers there look into each student's muscles and joints - I'm not saying they don't, but they spend less time with the students than their local schools teachers. Plus, they certainly do not expect a flat turnout in young students as the majority are not being taught this way. I also notice from this thread there is a lot of negativity about Vaganova - again, I'm not saying this is unjustified, I just see it as a fact that may also play some part.

 

Personally, I would be very interested to see if MOBA teachers correct her turnout, that would be a second opinion within the same system.

 

Re. RG - for us it was the other way round, first ballet then gymnastics just as an athletics supplement. I've been reading other forums on differences between RG and ballet stretch, splits and other technical differences since starting this topic so that was definitely useful.

 

DD was diagnosed as hypermobile at 4 but a mild to moderate case. She still has to work a lot on her stretch so I presume develops her proprioception while doing this. My older child is severely hypermobile (never did any dance or sport and would be unable to btw) so I know what to look out for.

Hi @Trumpeting Violinist

i can’t speak for other parents of kids at MOBA but my daughter has been at the school since she was 6 and is now 12. 
When she was younger half of her time in class was spent on conditioning exercises which I was told would get their muscles and body ready for the ballet part. Learning to use the right muscles. Even now at 12 each class still has a good proportion devoted to that. Her private lessons her teacher is always checking to make sure she’s using the right turnout muscles, not rolling her feet etc. 
I know of many girls who have been trained the English way and have found out they were not using the right muscles and known some who have had problems with injury because of it but also plenty of kids who do so maybe it’s school/teacher dependant . 

hope this helps 
 

[Mumof1]

And I also would like to add that when my daughter attended an associate scheme and was told to turn in a bit continuously , she failed to keep doing it. Not because she disagreed with the  method of teaching but i’m assuming because there was too much muscle memory there and she was probably too immature in a way. 
I believe now that she’d be a lot better at adapting to which training she was having and the benefits that come with. 

Edited June 23 by Mumof1

[Trumpeting Violinist]

1 hour ago, Mumof1 said:

And I also would like to add that when my daughter attended an associate scheme and was told to turn in a bit continuously , she failed to keep doing it. Not because she disagreed with the  method of teaching but i’m assuming because there was too much muscle memory there and she was probably too immature in a way. 
I believe now that she’d be a lot better at adapting to which training she was having and the benefits that come with. 

I think you're right, it has lots to do with how your fundamentals are set up, it will then define all other movements and it may be difficult to switch between the systems. Not just Vaganova vs British method, but I have also heard some contemporary companies would not accept classically trained ballerinas as their body/muscle memory are so rigidly set up by classical ballet that it's very hard for them to adapt to a completely different way of movement.

 

I guess something similar may happen in music with bow technique - if you train your right hand in a very strict technique like doing 40 minutes of open strings parallel bow exercise from a very young age, you might have difficulties later on to adapt to baroque instruments, for example. At least that's what I've heard from some teachers.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

I thought I just post a quick update, perhaps it can be useful for other parents of hypermobile dancers.

 

We had a kind of second opinion and it turned out DD is doing something entirely different from the usual turnout errors. She doesn't turn out from the knees, but she activates Vastus muscles more than Gluteus and smaller/deeper muscles closer to the hip joints. That perfectly explains to me why her upper legs look too athletic - it's basically the shape of over trained Vastus lateralis and intermedius. This doesn't increase risk of injury but is an incorrect technique nevertheless.

 

Another thing @Anna C mentioned that Russian teachers tend to encourage "sitting back into" joints - apparently, DD is doing something opposite and not "pulling up" her knees enough, despite her hypermobility and slightly banana legs 🤔 I wonder whether that hyper activation of Vastus (really big muscles attached to the knee) is just a way the body instinctively tries to prevent locking the hypermobile knee joints... I'm no expert on biomechanics though.

 

It looks like DD will need to reflect much more on her smaller and deeper muscles activation which can be difficult even for an adult, but there is definitely something to be aware of as she gets older.

 

I guess my point here is it's always worth getting second or third opinion, and there may be some unexpected but useful results.

 

Thank you all for your input!

Edited July 24 by Trumpeting Violinist

[Colman]

7 hours ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

I wonder whether that hyper activation of Vastus (really big muscles attached to the knee) is just a way the body instinctively tries to prevent locking the hypermobile knee joints... I'm no expert on biomechanics though

Could be. Sounds awfully like a group of things I’m currently trying to fix myself: I’m just hyper mobile enough to bruise the inside of my knee if I overextend the joint even slightly under load, and have had problems with those groups of muscles trying to push my turnout towards its full extent. 

[Kerfuffle]

From what I’ve understood hyper mobility can cause tightness elsewhere. My son with banana legs couldn’t touch his toes (not a dancer) for ages.

[Pas de Quatre]

That is right Kerfuffle, if one area is very loose e.g. knee joint an adjoining one may be over tight, in this case hamstrings. Hypermobile dancers have to be very careful when stretching to target the exact area!

[Peanut68]

Lightbulb moment here! You’ve all just explained my lifelong intrigue as to why with swayback legs/arms I was really not bendy elsewhere…. Never could easily get that nose to my knees when others found it easy!! Defo always tight as hell hamstrings….a physio recently seen now (in my 50’s) said I was hypermobile which kind of made my laugh as can barely touch my toes these days. I just had always thought that hypermobile meant ‘bendy’ but now realise it’s referring just to specific joints that may have wider range of movement! And yes, it’s all about needing strong muscles around in order to control & protect those joints! Really do see huge relevance in teaching ballet students (& actually all kids!) more about our skeletons & bodies & how bits work! 

Edited July 27 by Peanut68

[Raquelle]

5 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Lightbulb moment here! You’ve all just explained my lifelong intrigue as to why with swayback legs/arms I was really not bendy elsewhere…. Never could easily get that nose to my knees when others found it easy!! Defo always tight as hell hamstrings….a physio recently seen now (in my 50’s) said I was hypermobile which kind of made my laugh as can barely touch my toes these days. I just had always thought that hypermobile meant ‘bendy’ but now realise it’s referring just to specific joints that may have wider range of movement! And yes, it’s all about needing strong muscles around in order to control & protect those joints! Really do see huge relevance in teaching ballet students (& actually all kids!) more about our skeletons & bodies & how bits work! 

So interesting! I've got hyperextension in elbows and knees but cannot touch my toes! My dd in ballet school is hypermobile but has to work on her flexibility and yes lovely slingbacks but her hamstrings also tight! 

[Peanut68]

1 hour ago, Raquelle said:

and yes lovely slingbacks but her hamstrings also tight! 

I think auto spell has changed sway for sling!!! Gave me a lovely giggle imagining plies & tendu at the barre  in glossy patent sling back kitten heel shoes 👠 - ha ha!! 

[Kerfuffle]

Even as a non dancer it’s important to stretch properly if hypermobile. My hamstrings got tight after years of neglect and so did my hip flexors which gave me terrible back ache (too much driving to ballet was the actual trigger). I have hypermobile knees and in other places. Our posture is easily thrown out of line by that sort of tightness. 

[Pas de Quatre]

As an aside, in mid 20th Century many teachers wore street clothes for class and women did teach in high heels!

[The_Red_Shoes]

4 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

As an aside, in mid 20th Century many teachers wore street clothes for class and women did teach in high heels!

Yes, one of my teachers used to teach in red stilettos!