Flat turnout corrected all the time - what to do?

[Trumpeting Violinist]

25 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

And if we look at dancers historically, the idea of "flat" turnout is not really something we necessarily see in the great dancers of the past. As spectators, we're not looking at turn out on its own - we're looking for an expressive and mobile and graceful body, in which turn out is just one thing.

The great dancers are great not because of their facility be it turnout or anything else, that's for sure - Nureyev for example had what many would consider an "impaired facility" and "lack of proper training" but he was oh so much more than just height, weight, muscles, ligaments and hours in a studio.

[Garnier]

@Trumpeting Violinist - how old exactly is your daughter?

[Ruby Foo]

55 minutes ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

The great dancers are great not because of their facility be it turnout or anything else, that's for sure - Nureyev for example had what many would consider an "impaired facility" and "lack of proper training" but he was oh so much more than just height, weight, muscles, ligaments and hours in a studio.

This is true, but all great dancers regardless of their range of facilities must gain control of their turnout and everything else in order to bring all their facility together, including artistry. 

[Anna C]

On 12/06/2024 at 21:28, Trumpeting Violinist said:

DD is at a specialist performing arts school but is doing more music than dance.

I’m confused.  You say your daughter has an MDS award, so are her Vaganova ballet classes provided by the MDS school as part of her education?  If so, won’t Contemporary classes be offered by the same school when she’s older (Contemporary is not usually begun until 12 or 13)? 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

6 minutes ago, Anna C said:

I’m confused.  You say your daughter has an MDS award, so are her Vaganova ballet classes provided by the MDS school as part of her education?  If so, won’t Contemporary classes be offered by the same school when she’s older (Contemporary is not usually begun until 12 or 13)? 

She is a music scholar with dance on the side. Vaganova is not related to MDS, but she does some dance in her specialist school - that will never be the school's priority though.

She has much more aptitude for dance than music and it was evident from a very early age, but I don't want her to go this route - hence music MDS instead of dance. She loves dancing though and I'd like her to train properly while she's doing it - established methods/schools + associates, not just random local classes. She will definitely keep dancing as it's her strongest natural drive, and may want to merge various art forms in her professional life so it's always useful to have proper training.

[glowlight]

2 hours ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

That's true, and not only in dance world - all music schools we know do not allow having two teachers on the same instrument. Not just for financial reasons, but also because a child would be getting conflicting instructions.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that no child should have multiple dance teachers. For some it works really well, but I'm sure it depends on both the child and the teachers.

 

Have you considered applying for one of the Contemporary Dance CATs (Centres for Advanced Training) which take students from age 11? https://www.nationaldancecats.co.uk/

[Mummy twinkle toes]

My daughters studied Legat ballet (Russian), Cecchetti and RAD. Vaganova and Legat were intended for dancers intending for a career and originally only taught in vocational schools. RAD, by comparison, has a vocational route and a more recreational. There are differences and my daughters adapted their techniques dependent on the class they were in.

My daughters commenced Legat from the ages of 8 and 10. A few in my eldest daughter’s associate class attended Vaganova and some of the associate teachers were worried they would not develop like British dancers- never said to mine though. The Russian technique does teach first as flat 180 degree but remember the children at the Vaganova are checked to see if they are suitable for the method.
In the U.K., the teaching of first position evolved based on dance science to try and prevent injury so most teachers are rightly cautious.

You can ask the teacher for more explanation as to why they are correcting her. Some children when they bend their knees (plies), for example, have a tendency to roll their feet and cannot maintain the turnout. 
If you are in London and prefer to stay with Vaganova then Masters ballet academy is excellent. Training in different techniques does mean being able to adapt from one to the other. Pointe work also is taught differently.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

9 minutes ago, glowlight said:

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that no child should have multiple dance teachers. For some it works really well, but I'm sure it depends on both the child and the teachers.

 

Have you considered applying for one of the Contemporary Dance CATs (Centres for Advanced Training) which take students from age 11? https://www.nationaldancecats.co.uk/

Yes, I looked at two of them, but they mostly do Saturdays and it clashes with DD's music Junior Department. It may change  next year. Is The Place good for contemporary?

[Mummy twinkle toes]

3 minutes ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

Yes, I looked at two of them, but they mostly do Saturdays and it clashes with DD's music Junior Department. It may change  next year. Is The Place good for contemporary?

It is a long time since I visited The Place but it still has a very good reputation. Other good ones would be Rambert- a few of my daughter’s friends went on to train there and Laban.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

5 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

It is a long time since I visited The Place but it still has a very good reputation. Other good ones would be Rambert- a few of my daughter’s friends went on to train there and Laban.

Rambert is definitely on our radar.

[Kate_N]

The Place houses London Contemporary Dance School, which is excellent (certainly at degree level). It's pretty much entirely contemporary training, whereas Rambert still bases their training on ballet. There's a difference in emphasis - Marie Rambert originally established her company & school as purely classical ballet!

Edited June 17 by Kate_N

[LinMM]

Possibly why the Rambert dancers are some of my favourite contemporary dancers too. 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

On 16/06/2024 at 22:41, Mummy twinkle toes said:

My daughters studied Legat ballet (Russian), Cecchetti and RAD. Vaganova and Legat were intended for dancers intending for a career and originally only taught in vocational schools. RAD, by comparison, has a vocational route and a more recreational. There are differences and my daughters adapted their techniques dependent on the class they were in.

My daughters commenced Legat from the ages of 8 and 10. A few in my eldest daughter’s associate class attended Vaganova and some of the associate teachers were worried they would not develop like British dancers- never said to mine though. The Russian technique does teach first as flat 180 degree but remember the children at the Vaganova are checked to see if they are suitable for the method.
In the U.K., the teaching of first position evolved based on dance science to try and prevent injury so most teachers are rightly cautious.

You can ask the teacher for more explanation as to why they are correcting her. Some children when they bend their knees (plies), for example, have a tendency to roll their feet and cannot maintain the turnout. 
If you are in London and prefer to stay with Vaganova then Masters ballet academy is excellent. Training in different techniques does mean being able to adapt from one to the other. Pointe work also is taught differently.

All professional dancers get injured anyway at some point in their career. Among vocational students, 60-90% are injured, here is just one study of American dancers (I guess their teaching is closer to British, not Russian though I may be wrong here) https://www.jospt.org/doi/pdf/10.2519/jospt.2002.32.11.579 or a British study - 86% of pre-professional students are injured https://purehost.bath.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/226327009/Critchley_et_al_2021.pdf . Apparently, non-Vaganova teaching methods do not prevent injury that much - do British vocational schools inform parents about that before and during the application rounds?

 

I guess the rate of injury in Vaganova-trained dancers is roughly the same as it's an occupational hazard, but as far as I know the Vaganova Academy would not even accept a child who doesn't have natural facility (they would not accept too hypermobile children either as it's just another recipe for the same disaster). Their 2nd round at age 10-11 is a thorough medical check up, it's not just about passive hip external rotation, and you won't get through to the finals if the doctors say no. Is it the same at top vocational schools here?

 

I hear a lot about MOBA from everywhere, we'll probably go to their Summer School and ask for their "second opinion from a Vaganova teacher" on DD's turnout.

[Ruby Foo]

I would be quite skeptical about the reports of injuries of dancers in vocational schools. I know for a fact some injuries are dealt with in a way that won't appear in reports. I was told this by a physiotherapist working in a top UK vocational school who was dealing with my Dds serious injury. I presume it would be the same in Vaganova. My Dd started dancing at SAB in NYC and I would say the training aligns very much more towards Vaganova than a British training.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

15 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

I would be quite skeptical about the reports of injuries of dancers in vocational schools. I know for a fact some injuries are dealt with in a way that won't appear in reports. I was told this by a physiotherapist working in a top UK vocational school who was dealing with my Dds serious injury. I presume it would be the same in Vaganova. My Dd started dancing at SAB in NYC and I would say the training aligns very much more towards Vaganova than a British training.

So if the research from Bath quoted above says 86% of British students get injured, and you add that some injuries are not reported, that can only mean that prevalence of injuries is close to 100%? How could anyone claim that British approach to teaching prevents injuries then? 🤔

I'm pretty sure it's more or less the same in Russian schools, I just don't have a research paper to hand, but would actually be interested to see any comparisons of methods in terms of injury rates.

Edited June 18 by Trumpeting Violinist

[Kerfuffle]

I think feet being at 180 degrees and knees not being over them as you can see in some students in the ballet exams at VBA are one example of likely cause of injury (stress on knees and also rolled in feet). Of course most serious athletes are going to get injured and ballet is no different so students at vocational schools are going to suffer these problems. Sometimes students don’t like to report pain as they don’t want to miss out on lessons. Steve McRae has spoken at length about his recovery. Ideally strength is built up alongside flexibility. From what I’be heard there is very little conditioning  in Vaganova based schools. I don’t mean to write them off because my DD had a wonderful time learning this method and is a much more musical and expressive dancer than she might have been otherwise but it’s worth keeping in mind especially since your daughter sounds hypermobile so that she avoids injury.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

15 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I think feet being at 180 degrees and knees not being over them as you can see in some students in the ballet exams at VBA are one example of likely cause of injury (stress on knees and also rolled in feet). Of course most serious athletes are going to get injured and ballet is no different so students at vocational schools are going to suffer these problems. Sometimes students don’t like to report pain as they don’t want to miss out on lessons. Steve McRae has spoken at length about his recovery. Ideally strength is built up alongside flexibility. From what I’be heard there is very little conditioning  in Vaganova based schools. I don’t mean to write them off because my DD had a wonderful time learning this method and is a much more musical and expressive dancer than she might have been otherwise but it’s worth keeping in mind especially since your daughter sounds hypermobile so that she avoids injury.

In the UK I guess it depends very much on the school, some offer very basic training and there is no vocational Vaganova here as far as I know, but it seems at the Vaganova Academy they do have conditioning  - Maria Khoreva has quite a few conditioning videos and she comes from the academy. I also watch this channel, the guy is teaching at the Vaganova, she's from Bolshoi Academy, and their channel is all about strength  https://www.youtube.com/@smartballet/videos It doesn't look like strength is being neglected in Russian approach.

 

I was just reading lots of research on Google Scholar after many posters said that British approach was scientifically proven to prevent injuries - it doesn't seem to be the case from the research papers. There is nothing on Vaganova rates of injury on Scholar, but I think ballet is such an unhealthy and dangerous vocation that it cannot be much better whatever the method is. I guess the main difference is The Vaganova selects on very very VERY strict health/body/physio criteria, not just proportions but bones/ligaments/joints characteristics, muscles softness, body asymmetry etc. They have a very different intake that potentially can sustain ballet a little longer, but they get injured anyway, if not at school then when they start dancing professionally.

[BalletcoForum Moderators]

Just a reminder that only video links from official sources/the rights holder can be used on the Forum.

 

Thank you

[Pas de Quatre]

Just a few comments: -

- Balanchine was Russian, and trained at the Imperial Ballet School which later was renamed Vaganova Academy. So although he later developed his own style for NYCB & SAB, its roots are Russian.

- Olga Semenova of MOBA trained at Vaganova Academy and also taught there before relocating to UK. There are films on YouTube of her students official exams. So if you want the real deal, courses at MOBA may be of interest.

- Kings International is a vocational school in UK using Vaganova method. 

The build up of technique is different in Vaganova, but it is one of the major ways of training dancers worldwide and doesn't have a reputation for causing injuries. Of course any style can cause injuries if badly taught!

- The Sugar Plum film is delightful, but this is not the choreography used in UK and Europe.

 

[Colman]

1 hour ago, Kerfuffle said:

I think feet being at 180 degrees and knees not being over them as you can see in some students

 

This is what I think of as "Russian turnout" in adult classes, however unfairly. Mostly returnees who never learned to control their turnout when they danced when they were younger and now don't want to listen to teachers telling them to back-off until they build the strength or explaining that they're stressing the connective tissue from the knee down - there's always an influencer who'll give the answer they want.

 

Coming into this world later in life, there seems to me to be a historical tendency to consider trainee dancers disposable in ballet training, and that seems still to be stronger in the Russian (and thus much of the American) traditions than in the British/Irish traditions that are trying to put that aside. What happens at major academies isn't what worries me, it's the other 95% of dancers who don't get measured in the statistics. 

[Kerfuffle]

Very true @Colmanwhich is why young dancers should be careful of social media.
 

British ballet has its roots in Russian as well as French and Italian. Ninette de Valois studied all these techniques and could see the positives and negatives in each of them. I think the original Vaganova technique is very good but there are others that complement it and once a dancer is mature enough they benefit from cross training. I don’t know if the modern day versions are quite the same as what was taught back in the 20th century which is why I posted that video (was it cancelled)? A lot of fabulous dancers left Russia in the 90s so perhaps that explains the change. 
 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

Thank you Kerfuffle, an interesting video!  The 60s style looks more controlled and almost "dreamy" to me which I actually prefer to more "sporty" movements.

[Kerfuffle]

Same here, she’s the perfect Sugar Plum - a lovely performance and  technique ! 

[Anna C]

2 hours ago, Colman said:

What happens at major academies isn't what worries me, it's the other 95% of dancers who don't get measured in the statistics. 

Indeed, Colman.  To which I’d add that reporting methods and transparency probably differ between various countries, so just because more injuries might be reported by one major school, it doesn’t mean that an equal or higher number of injuries isn’t happening elsewhere - just that the information isn’t as easily available.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

16 minutes ago, Anna C said:

Indeed, Colman.  To which I’d add that reporting methods and transparency probably differ between various countries, so just because more injuries might be reported by one major school, it doesn’t mean that an equal or higher number of injuries isn’t happening elsewhere - just that the information isn’t as easily available.

I understand it's difficult to accept the fact that British research reported a very high rate of injuries in British pre-professional dancers, contrary to claims on the forum. That other methods may be the same or worse doesn't make this statistics any better.

 

I wonder how much of this delusion comes from the schools, in addition to the sheer personal want to do ballet no matter what...

[Kerfuffle]

It’s not really surprising that injuries happen to a high number of students and professionals, a lot of these aren’t related to turn out which is what the original discussion was about but rather a whole load of other risk factors such as over use. Ballet is an extremely demanding art form. 

[Ruby Foo]

Exactly Kerfuffle. Most dancers will have an injury at some point in their training and career but they are caused by many factors not necessarily related to turnout at all, which I what this thread is about.
I also know a couple of amazing students who have had no injuries at all so far -now in junior company. 

[Anna C]

19 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

It’s not really surprising that injuries happen to a high number of students and professionals, a lot of these aren’t related to turn out which is what the original discussion was about but rather a whole load of other risk factors such as over use. Ballet is an extremely demanding art form. 

Over-use/over-extension encouraged/pushed/forced by some teachers is probably responsible for a good proportion of injuries suffered by students and trainee ballet dancers, if the teacher is teaching in the way that he or she was taught at school.  Not only does that “it never did me any harm” attitude repeat potentially unsafe and/or outdated teaching methods, it doesn’t take into account the strength, facility, or skeletal maturity of pupils who either aren’t aiming for a career as a ballet dancer (say they’re at Associates, or part-time training) or - like the ballet teacher/Instagrammer mentioned earlier - have been trained in a more cautious environment when younger, then changed schools.  If I remember rightly, the spinal stress fracture suffered by that particular dancer did not happen until after her Russian training from 16-19, brought on by the over-extension so prized in Russia.  Would the RBS upper school system have been more cautious with her back, I wonder?

 

I suffered that exact same injury as a child in international youth sport, because back then we didn’t know about hypermobility, pilates, repetitive strain injuries, the importance of core strength, body conditioning, and not pushing/forcing/locking hypermobile joints.  We do now, though, so - especially if a child/student is not aiming for a career as a ballet dancer - I struggle to understand why some ballet teachers and training systems are still reluctant to join the 21st century?  Why risk unnecessary injury, why ignore or reject new, safer methods, why force or encourage over-extension/swaybacks/turnout, especially in children and teenagers?  
 

That’s a timely reminder to bring the discussion back to turnout.  I think you’ve had a lot of excellent advice from experienced parents and teachers, Trumpeting Violinist, and I think taking your dd to a dance physio to assess hypermobility and strength is a great first step.  Whether or not she’s aiming for full-time ballet/contemporary training (or even a career as a musician), I’m sure her safety, her long-term health, and preventing injury, is your top priority.  

[LinMM]

I’ve discovered who the dancer/ teacher mentioned on this thread is by a little bit of detective work. 
I watched one of her non teaching videos in which she freely admits she became severely addicted to stretching especially back stretches and this coupled with her being too thin at the time ( she’s 5ft 9 ins tall!) 

is what she thinks caused what looks like a stress fracture in the lumbar vertebrae. 
Now whether she was just responding completely uniquely in this over stretching or whether it was partly fed by the training she was given is difficult to assess. 
How she got through her final exam assessment at Vaganova that year though I will never know definitely a triumph of mind over matter!!! 

I haven’t yet got to the story of her obviously second back injury ( or aggravation of the first) which forced her to give up dancing as a career. But presumably she couldn’t get the better of the addiction to over stretching. 
But at least she was talking about the dangers in this video. 

I am however a little concerned in that considering all her online classes I can’t see any evidence of teacher training in her ads. This maybe okay for teaching adults but raises concerns about teaching much younger pupils who may access online classes. 
One of the problems I have with too much online ballet learning is the teacher cannot possibly keep up tabs on all their “worldwide” students!! 
Hopefully most young dancers

will also be attending in studio classes as well. 

In the past I think it has been more acceptable for dancers to pass on knowledge to their students without any other further training but these days especially when teaching mixed abilities it seems best to try to gain this extra training or run the risk of not really understanding the real level of ability the students in front of you have reached. This is where injury can be caused where learners are concerned. 
 

[Anna C]

57 minutes ago, LinMM said:

it seems best to try to gain this extra training or run the risk of not really understanding the real level of ability the students in front of you have reached.

Absolutely, Lin - and not just the level of ability, but also the level of mobility/facility/strength/and skeletal maturity of each individual student.  As we’ve discussed before, stretches should be prescribed on an individual basis and supervised (remembering the late Shirley Hancock’s words “Practice doesn’t make perfect, it makes permanent”).
 

Added to which, teaching a hypermobile student whose proprioception may be very different to her non-hypermobile peers can present real challenges for a teacher even in the studio (for a long time, the way my daughter’s proprioception worked was a mystery to one of her teachers), so imho teaching ballet online to children and growing teenagers should really only be limited to lockdowns (and let’s hope to goodness we never have to go through those again. 😳).

[Ruby Foo]

In my Dds experience of a renowned UK vocational upper school, there were many injuries especially in 1st year upper and mostly stress fractures including the spine. At one low point , there were only 3 girls dancing and they had to rearrange a performance they were due to give as no one was able to perform. 

In my opinion this was because of totally different messages coming from the strength and conditioning / health team/ physiotherapists ( who were incredible) and what was actually happening in the studio. The physio's were all well aware that the class was too difficult and that the students were not given enough time in Autumn term to build the strength and stamina needed to cope with such challenges. They said their hands were tied and despaired with so many injuries. This was told to me on the phone by the school physiotherapist. 

So even with the best intentions and the best and safest tuition early on, it only takes a little diversion from that, to cause real lifelong harm.

 

[Pas de Quatre]

One area that hasn't been mentioned is that young people today have not the same physical development as in previous generations. Instead of playing outside, hopscotch, tree climbing, riding bikes, walking to school, doing school sports, etc etc, they spend too much time in car seats and being driven to places. Many teachers I know have said that modern children are a couple of years behind in ability and coordination. My own particular "light bulb" moment was realising that a simple skill such as tying a bow, normally learnt by the age of five before velcro was invented, is now only learnt several years later. So I do believe that ballet training needs to be aware of this problem. Do children who have a more traditional environment end up with an advantage?

[Trumpeting Violinist]

14 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

In my Dds experience of a renowned UK vocational upper school, there were many injuries especially in 1st year upper and mostly stress fractures including the spine. At one low point , there were only 3 girls dancing and they had to rearrange a performance they were due to give as no one was able to perform. 

In my opinion this was because of totally different messages coming from the strength and conditioning / health team/ physiotherapists ( who were incredible) and what was actually happening in the studio. The physio's were all well aware that the class was too difficult and that the students were not given enough time in Autumn term to build the strength and stamina needed to cope with such challenges. They said their hands were tied and despaired with so many injuries. This was told to me on the phone by the school physiotherapist. 

So even with the best intentions and the best and safest tuition early on, it only takes a little diversion from that, to cause real lifelong harm.

 

Thank you Ruby Foo for sharing your experience and not trying to gloss over the reality of USs.