Carlos Acosta interview in the Independent

[Ruby Foo]

23 minutes ago, Ballet Saga said:

Do you want serious conversation or do you want a wave of discussion on social media that inevitably goes nowhere? It’s the latter that is happening. 

Ballet Saga, I'm not sure how you measure the influence that social media discussions have on society and the world in general? 
It may be your perception that nothing changed but I think you'll find that's just your experience. We are all greatly influenced by what we hear and see regardless of where and how we see it. I have 4 daughters and they felt the metoo discussion was incredibly useful.

I'm also confused as to how you know this discussion re weight in Ballet (  it was referring specifically to female dancers in this instance) 'will inevitably come to nothing' and how you can foretell and measure any impact it might have. Sounds a little glass half empty. 
Where would you prefer to have these discussions that you think will make a difference long term?

[Lifeafterballet]

There seems to be a lot of anger coming through in some of the posts on this thread. I’m not liking it 🙁 

[Ballet Saga]

14 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Ballet Saga, I'm not sure how you measure the influence that social media discussions have on society and the world in general? 
It may be your perception that nothing changed but I think you'll find that's just your experience. We are all greatly influenced by what we hear and see regardless of where and how we see it. I have 4 daughters and they felt the metoo discussion was incredibly useful.

I'm also confused as to how you know this discussion re weight in Ballet (  it was referring specifically to female dancers in this instance) 'will inevitably come to nothing' and how you can foretell and measure any impact it might have. Sounds a little glass half empty. 
Where would you prefer to have these discussions that you think will make a difference long term?

There should be forums set up (like scientific ones!) that discuss this properly. Not by people on social media that are heavily emotionally involved. I know it’s not the way it will

change (discussions on social media) because there is plenty of academic research out there that proves it if you care to look. 
 

Women are abused daily and the #metoo ‘movement’ has not stopped that. 

[Ballet Saga]

9 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

There seems to be a lot of anger coming through in some of the posts on this thread. I’m not liking it 🙁 

If you’re insinuating I’m angry then let me reassure you I am not! Not at all! 

[Ballet Saga]

Anyway as usual this forum has too many people in it with very emotional responses to any discussions and therefore it’s totally pointless trying to actually discuss anything. It’s an echo chamber and if you say something different to the majority then you’re being combative etc. That’s the thing about social media. People only want to hear from people that agree with them. What would be good is to see some actual practical solutions rather than continual emotional responses. I am often completely surprised by what people say and do even though they say they’re against things in the ballet world. There doesn’t seem to much parental responsibility (it’s always a case

of blame everyone else). Just my opinion from my experiences! 

 

[Out-the-other-side]

1 hour ago, Ballet Saga said:

Women are abused daily and the #metoo ‘movement’ has not stopped that. 

But it has given them a voice. Just like the documentary that we are not currently allowed to discuss gave voice to those children body shamed at our top schools.  

[Chira]

2 hours ago, Ballet Saga said:

Do you want serious conversation or do you want a wave of discussion on social media that inevitably goes nowhere? It’s the latter that is happening. 

Well we are having a reasonably serious discussion here.  
Social media can be a useful place to shine a spotlight on areas like this, it reaches a wide audience and allows people like here to take carrry forward the discussion. 

 

 

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, Millicent said:

I'm surprised that he hasn't given a public statement in response yet.

 

 

BRB (and Acosta) are currently out of the UK in Rotterdam.  Perhaps he does not yet know of the controversy this article has caused.

[Jan McNulty]

2 hours ago, Ballet Saga said:

Anyway as usual this forum has too many people in it with very emotional responses to any discussions and therefore it’s totally pointless trying to actually discuss anything. It’s an echo chamber and if you say something different to the majority then you’re being combative etc. That’s the thing about social media. People only want to hear from people that agree with them. What would be good is to see some actual practical solutions rather than continual emotional responses. I am often completely surprised by what people say and do even though they say they’re against things in the ballet world. There doesn’t seem to much parental responsibility (it’s always a case

of blame everyone else). Just my opinion from my experiences! 

 

 

@Ballet Saga if you re-read your posts you will hopefully see why people are finding them combative.

 

If people politely disagree with you that is their prerogative to do so without being challenged combatively.  

[Emeralds]

With regard to the newspaper article, don't forget that the editor and the journalist are in charge of the narrative- we have no proof that what was published was what Acosta actually said or intended. Interviewees are misquoted all the time.

 

Even the way the headline has been written can give rise to several differing interpretations. The interview seems to have been meant to discuss or publicise the Acosta Danza production of Carmen, and to talk about Carlos's own dancing in his current projects including but not just Carmen - including his own challenges to keep trim and fit enough to dance. 

 

Somehow it has gone off on a tangent to talk about fat shaming and the issue of how to handle approaches to weight, shape and eating disorders in students and young dancers. Perhaps the editor should have assigned the journalist two articles. It's not terribly helpful to anyone when the editor or author tries to reduce the topic to 2 or 3 soundbites.

 

As a result you end up with  heated arguments on social media triggered by one or two sentences attributed to Acosta. Some feel he has sidestepped the issue and made the excuse that it's about partnering. But we don't even know if that's what he actually meant, considering that the topic has been shoe horned into an interview about at least 3 other topics. And some people on social media have become very worked up about an isolated phrase or sentence as a result. 

 

Perhaps a better approach would be to have a livestream discussion with Acosta  so we know that his words haven't been taken out of context or misquoted, or edited and abbreviated so much so that it is misrepresented. I must admit that when I first saw the headline I thought it was about one thing, but the article jumped around different topics, and ended up not covering much in depth discussion but only some brief facts and soundbites, that I found it an unsatisfactory read (other than confirming that Acosta will be performing a minor role in the Carmen production).

 

The issue is important- and for some young students it is their lives- but the article adds nothing useful or even believable to the discussion. I'm not defending Acosta here. To me the topic hasn't been adequately addressed, other than mentioned and dealt with in a rather wishy washy manner. The students and young dancers who have suffered with fat shaming and eating disorders deserve better than this half hearted attempt. Also it's foolish and misleading to mix the topic of a starving child from a poverty-stricken household with the matter of ballet  students wanting to restrict their food intake as the article does.

 

If they want his input about this issue, ask for an  interview solely to discuss this topic. If he refuses, then address that - that in itself could be the basis of an article. But not these few hurried sentences about such an important matter. The author might as well not have asked the question  as what was published is vague and unhelpful. 

[Emeralds]

3 hours ago, Ballet Saga said:

There should be forums set up (like scientific ones!) that discuss this properly. 

Hi @Ballet Saga, have read through the extensive threads we have already had on this forum discussing the issues, sharing information and experiences about the matter of weight and body shaming in students and young dancers?

 

In a way, a lot of the social media reactions to this article are very late to the discussion- and a few social media users, somewhat unhelpfully, are using it as a way to stir up some "don't forget this is my cause, people!" publicity. (That's not the same as being helpful in raising awareness or offering support to those having a difficult time dealing with it.) 

[Lifeafterballet]

5 hours ago, Ballet Saga said:

Anyway as usual this forum has too many people in it with very emotional responses to any discussions and therefore it’s totally pointless trying to actually discuss anything. 

 

If it’s totally pointless then why are you wasting your time reading all of these emotional responses. 
Just a thought 🤔

[Drdee]

I think if we go back to the original post sharing the article and then the link to the social media responses. 
1. CA has been tagged in many of the posts.

2. The disappointment in CA’s comments is more about them being outdated and factually incorrect (or at least been contradicted by empirical research).
3. The most vocal person I have read on Instagram is a former dancer, qualified doctor of medicine and trained nutritionist who works daily with dancers and former dancers with a range of health concerns.

4. The focus on the female dancer was because CA talked about that. Many young dancers have been deeply affected by comments about weight that have had long lasting mental and physical ramifications. These comments need to be unpacked and discussed - I know I have a lot more to learn and my dd’s are helping me re-educate myself.

 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

21 minutes ago, Drdee said:

2. The disappointment in CA’s comments is more about them being outdated and factually incorrect (or at least been contradicted by empirical research).
3. The most vocal person I have read on Instagram is a former dancer, qualified doctor of medicine and trained nutritionist who works daily with dancers and former dancers with a range of health concerns.

4. The focus on the female dancer was because CA talked about that. Many young dancers have been deeply affected by comments about weight that have had long lasting mental and physical ramifications. These comments need to be unpacked and discussed - I know I have a lot more to learn and my dd’s are helping me re-educate myself.

 

“[Weight] is a very hard word, because right now, you know if you say ‘shape’...” he begins. “But as a professional, you have to watch [your weight]. You have to ‘watch your line’” – by which he means the harmonious aesthetic of a dancer’s body in motion. “Women have always been carried [in ballet],” he continues. “Obviously, sometimes, the guy [doing the lifting] can’t cope ... if the girl isn’t light enough. No one wants anyone to become ill – please, no one wants that – but dancers have to keep within a range so the partner can cope with the steps.”

 

That's exactly what CA said (or rather what was published) and I would be very interested to know what is factually incorrect in CA comments and what exactly has been contradicted by research.

 

Is it not difficult to talk about weight these days? Don't professionals have to watch their weight? Can male dancers lift any weight and cope with the steps? 

 

[Ruby Foo]

54 minutes ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

“[Weight] is a very hard word, because right now, you know if you say ‘shape’...” he begins. “But as a professional, you have to watch [your weight]. You have to ‘watch your line’” – by which he means the harmonious aesthetic of a dancer’s body in motion. “Women have always been carried [in ballet],” he continues. “Obviously, sometimes, the guy [doing the lifting] can’t cope ... if the girl isn’t light enough. No one wants anyone to become ill – please, no one wants that – but dancers have to keep within a range so the partner can cope with the steps.”

 

That's exactly what CA said (or rather what was published) and I would be very interested to know what is factually incorrect in CA comments and what exactly has been contradicted by research.

 

Is it not difficult to talk about weight these days? Don't professionals have to watch their weight? Can male dancers lift any weight and cope with the steps? 

 

 They are real issues, yes. But the problem is talking about these issues in isolation without sitting them in a science based and nutrition/ strength based discussion. If you talk about them without the scientific context of health and well-being running at the crux of Ballet training then they are interpreted in a way that could be extremely damaging. Despite being many topics on the agenda, there were many ways CA could have expressed this quite quickly, but he didn't, which is regrettable and makes me wonder why? So many people, will quite rightly be asking how he could be so irresponsible. Of course they are all real issues that need to be resolved to create overall balance but it's not an easy feat to accomplish. The crux of the balance must be sustained by health and strength and wellness and that's the message that should have been imparted.

[Peanut68]

11 hours ago, Ballet Saga said:

Do you want serious conversation or do you want a wave of discussion on social media that inevitably goes nowhere? It’s the latter that is happening. 

Perhaps because there has been no further response or clarification of comments or stance from original interviewee?? 

Edited June 12 by Peanut68

[Peanut68]

May I also say again - I vote Emeralds for Prime Minister! You always shine a light of measure & clarity on these ballet world discussions!

Edited June 12 by Peanut68

[Trumpeting Violinist]

29 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Despite being many topics on the agenda, there were many ways CA could have expressed this quite quickly, but he didn't, which is regrettable and makes me wonder why? So many people, will quite rightly be asking how he could be so irresponsible.

I guess he was just scared. People lose lives, not just careers in the current cancel culture, you open your mouth and immediately get floods of pure hatred. It's hard these days to say anything.

 

Also, his comments were clearly edited by the journalist, we don't know what else he said.

Edited June 12 by Trumpeting Violinist

[Peanut68]

I would also like to just add that as Carlos Acosta is now so deeply embedded in the global dance scene, he really ought to be better advised/prepped for any interview situation & know how to say the right sound bites…. But I’m actually pleased that he was slightly ‘rabbit in headlights’ here & I’m sure some of his quoted comments were as he sees it…. Better to get it ‘as it is’ rather than the tiresome PR line so often spewed out that suggest the  ballet world is now all totally PC & ‘healthy dancer’ led (well…what can I say??!) I do appreciate that any article is edited & do suspect CA possibly suffers in this article for this…. But… he is certainly responsible for anything going on ‘in his name’ & I can personally confirm very unhelpful comments are being said to young dancers regarding weight in training situations ‘in his name’ . Is that therefore sanctioned by him? Or ‘rogue’ staff? Perhaps he needs to keep a closer eye on the messages he is either personally or by named association sending out. 

Edited June 12 by Peanut68

[Drdee]

I think the issue is linking ‘weight’ with ‘line’. Weight is only one aspect of a healthy being and if the focus is on that it is not sustainable long term and has negative impact on dancers physically, emotionally and mentally (this is where the research has disproved this connection).

 

I was impressed when David Hallberg and one of the female Principal Dancers from Australian Ballet were on primetime television in Australia calling out a journalist who remarked on the female dancers bodies and talking about how this inoffensive comment had triggering effects. 

 

Edited June 12 by Drdee
Grammatical error corrected

[Ruby Foo]

5 minutes ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

I guess he was just scared. People lose lives, not just careers in the current cancel culture, you just open your mouth and immediately get floods of pure hatred. It's hard these days to say anything.

 

Also, his comments were clearly edited by the journalist, we don't know what else he said.

I accept the edit part.

 

I do not accept of thinking of your own fall from grace before the serious consequences of the health of young, growing bodies over which you have direct influence.

 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

31 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

I accept the edit part.

 

I do not accept of thinking of your own fall from grace before the serious consequences of the health of young, growing bodies over which you have direct influence.

 

I would've been scared if my child was so susceptible to strangers' opinions on the internet. Even if the "stranger" is a professional - if they're not involved in teaching my child, there is no direct influence and their opinion should be largely irrelevant and not taken personally IMO. We cannot afford being so extremely fragile in the era of anonymous social media.

 

Is Acosta starving BRB dancers? That would've been direct influence as I see it.

[Ruby Foo]

4 minutes ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

I would've been scared if my child was so susceptible to strangers' opinions on the internet. Even if the "stranger" is a professional - if they're not involved in teaching my child, there is no direct influence and their opinion should be largely irrelevant and not taken personally IMO. We cannot afford being so extremely fragile in the era of anonymous social media.

 

Is Acosta starving BRB dancers? That would've been direct influence as I see it.

What is scary is the words he used and how that reflects what he thinks.

Thoughts, words, deeds.

Being a very active and important figure in the Ballet world one must presume he believes in his words and acts on them. Unless he was lying of course. Therefore we can glean a little of how the Ballet world is thinking and operating.

In the bigger picture therefore, especially where vocational schools and Companies are concerned, his position and thinking reflects what is happening within the walls of those institutions and influences it to a degree. 

[Jan McNulty]

Although Carlos Acosta has lived in the UK for many years it should be remembered that he is not a UK-English native speaker and sometimes usage of language can also be an issue.

 

When I went up to Sunderland to see Sleeping Beauty earlier in the year a number of BRB dancers were staying in the same Premier Inn.  I know this because I saw them partaking of breakfast.  As a member of the audience, I don't think any of the dancers look as thought they are any different in shape from when he took over the company in 2020.

[Kerfuffle]

I would agree, I saw the BRB dancers close up in an extra display. They looked healthy to me and had good muscle tone, they are mostly young and not very different to other very active athletic people. Height and bone structure are a lot to do with how someone appears and this gives the overall impression of line, this is a huge part of the aesthetic.  Fat is very  light in comparison to muscle and bone - so a lot of the battle seems to be wasted on the one thing that really makes the least difference. Tragically it’s also such an important part of health, allowing periods, and without those a woman’s whole skeleton is vulnerable to fractures. Not all ballet schools are toxic, there are some that genuinely encourage a healthy weight and building strength in both sexes. 

[Colman]

I’d honestly be a little impressed if anyone dancing professionally full time managed to have much more than minimum healthy body fat. 
 

That’s not the issue. It’s the expectation that developing teenagers should match that aesthetic or that dancers should have less than that minimum and the exclusion of many talented dancers  because of weird body standards.

[Chira]

I just read reread the interview, yes I’m sure it was edited, but it was a car crash, and the subtext screams to me that ballet culture remains outdated and stuck in the past.
 

Carlos Acosta made the ‘weight/line/shape issue’ explicitly about woman in ballet. Leaving the reader to infer that women must be the ones to stay in shape (lose weight) just in case ‘the guy can’t cope…if the girl isn’t light enough’ 😧 

Right there he lost me his audience and created a social media furore.  

He also disappointingly swerved the issue of race and diversity in ballet suggesting it is now a non-issue; he also stated he had never been exposed to any racism in the course of his ballet career.

Again leaving the reader to infer maybe racism doesn’t even exist in dance. 🤦🏻‍♀️ 

 

Weight Race Culture

Sighs ☹️ 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peanut68]

I think the issue is the influence poorly chosen words may have on impressionable young dancers in training & also the trainers themselves… it is often (so called) teachers who imprint bad & unhealthy expectations - as was alluded to above - & perpetuate things. The all too prevalent - especially in top institutions - of ballet teachers ‘doing to others as was done to them’ method of teaching has just got to change. Hence the ballet training world does seem somewhat stuck in a Groundhog Day of poor attitudes & approaches to (especially female) weight & body image. It does need to be 
called out & teachers & their establishments need to be called out where they fall short from MODERN DAY HEALTH & WELFARE STANDARDS & RULES. I’d add here also that saying English is a a second language should never be allowed to excuse poor teaching practises.
Re: this interview. I personally think if there is a concern that language barriers could lead to any misinterpretation then CA & his advisors in all his various business/charity interests have the ability to ask (might not be granted I guess) for a check prior to publication? This would also I’m sure mean journalists carefully ‘fact check’ too. 

[LinMM]

I suppose it depends which of Carlos’s interviews you read! 
I’ve just read one dated June 6th in Weekending …part of the Waitrose magazine …in which Carlos expresses his desire to increase diversity in the Company for example. 
“One of the first things that struck me when I arrived in Britain was the lack of representation on stage of the World as we know it” 

He is very pro diversity and says more needs to be done as this will affect audience attendance as well…he’s keen to attract a more diverse audience. 
He does say he is pleased things have moved on since he arrived here but that is not the same as saying he’s now saying it’s a “non issue” Personally I think that does insult him just a little bit Chira!! 
 

 

Edited June 13 by LinMM

[Anna C]

26 minutes ago, Chira said:

Leaving the reader to infer that women must be the ones to stay in shape (lose weight) just in case ‘the guy can’t cope…if the girl isn’t light enough’ 😧

This is what stood out to me, as well.  It’s an outdated way of thinking from an AD who does have a big part in training young dancers, as well as recruiting dancers for BRB.  And while I am aware that English is not Mr Acosta’s first language, I would assume that not only is his English perfectly good, but also that he has had time to watch/listen to the BBC Panorama programme and the BBC File on 4* programme on body shaming in ballet schools.  Therefore, the question should not have caught him unawares, and he could have said “I need time to think about that question; can we come back to it?”

 

11 hours ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

12 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

 

I guess he was just scared. People lose lives, not just careers in the current cancel culture, you open your mouth and immediately get floods of pure hatred. It's hard these days to say anything.

In my experience, “cancel culture” has become a complaint from people who think they can say whatever they like, no matter how offensive, without repercussions.  They seem to demand freedom of speech without consequences.  I prefer to think of it as “call out culture”.

 

In the case of body shaming at ballet schools, the only people at risk of being “cancelled” are students, parents, or whistleblowers.  We might disagree with Mr Acosta’s words, but let’s face it, he’s absolutely NOT going to lose his job (or his life) because of one interview - nor should he.  
 

But I would certainly think him wise if he were to issue some sort of statement about his comments, clarifying the difference between “line” and dancers’ weight, and also showing he understands that if a male dancer struggles to lift a female dancer, the “fault” is not the ballerina’s weight. 
 

* https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001qdt6

 

 

[Peanut68]

Things have moved on….a bit. I’d say there have been big leaps forward in ballet & dance as far as representing diversity/race/culture goes…. But ballet especially still seems very stuck as far as body image & body representation goes. Yes, we know it’s very technique & the artistry (the ‘line’ etc!) will be subjective to the viewer/audience. And body shape/facility/strength & weight ratios of partnered dancers will impact on this. And audiences will always vote by their ticket purchases to go watch specific dancers.

But personally I want to see real adults dance, men & women who are healthy sportspeople & artists & sone of who have periods, have babies, & want all to have had a safe & fulfilling & respectful time training & are having happy careers! 
 

[Peanut68]

6 minutes ago, Anna C said:

In the case of body shaming at ballet schools, the only people at risk of being “cancelled” are students, parents, or whistleblowers.  We might disagree with Mr Acosta’s words, but let’s face it, he’s absolutely NOT going to lose his job (or his life) because of one interview - nor should he.  

Oh yes - this is oh so true, regarding any issues of conflict within these so called elite dance training institutions. 
The abuse of power & even just the threats to abuse their power is crushing students/parents/whistleblowers & shamefully has damaged countless young people/family members & whilst it continues it damages this ballet art form so many of us clearly love. 😢

Edited June 13 by Peanut68

[LinMM]

In the Weekending article Carlos says 

“ I don’t think people understand what being a dancer at the highest level entails. We are part athletes …we work eight hours a day that’s why our bodies are formed the way they are …..but we’re also musicians ….and we’re actors…….

I really don’t believe Carlos lives on lemon juice and an apple like some dancer apparently did and doesn’t expect others too either!! 
Of course dancers are expected to be a healthy weight but also have to eat the right foods ….its 2024 and loads and loads has been written on healthy diets (and exercise etc etc)  You can eat supremely well and keep slim as the reality is ballet dancers  can’t just get to 15 stone and expect people to lift them!!  I’m nearly 12 stone and wouldn’t expect people to lift me lol!!
But the sheer amount of time spent dancing and rehearsing etc for professionals anyway means dancers can eat really well without too much worry about gaining too much weight!! 

At the same time I am appalled that partnering work seems to be taught so badly …well according to reports here….of course the men have the responsibility of being strong enough to lift the female dancers etc 

Im sure this is happening in Companies. There seems to be a lot of gym training these days as far as I can observe and Carlos himself says he STILL  goes to the gym so himself has taken responsibility for this. 
 

I can only presume there is a huge disconnect between the Ballet Companies employing dancers and many of the training schools which obviously needs to be looked at. 
The growing needs of 12-18 year olds are also different to adults and have to be taken into account in training. 
 

But there is a certain reality in being a ballet dancer ….there are many other forms of Dance!!
In many sports you have to watch your weight!! This does NOT mean you have to starve yourself! There’s so much knowledge out there on how to eat well and be healthy and be fit to do what is required of you. 
 

I will be very surprised if Carlos does not address what has happened regards this interview but am sure some things being inferred here from what he is supposed to have said are not what he actually meant….but we’ll see. 
Meanwhile Carlos has done so much to get more people from all backgrounds involved in ballet… not just young people …though that has been his main focus so hope people won’t try to denigrate him too much from this  one interview.