Carlos Acosta interview in the Independent

[Ruby Foo]

1 minute ago, DD Driver said:

In my experience,  the desirable aesthetic in ballet schools & companies is still 'undernourished'.  For males & females.

I think there is a mismatch between this and the general audience's perceptions of beauty.

 

I greatly appreciate people like Steven McRae speaking up about the beauty of athleticism & how he suffered as an artist & a person, when he danced on an insufficient caloric intake... to meet the boyish aesthetic.

Exactly this.
And what dancers view to be enough food is completely skewed in comparison to their non dancing counterparts and yet they are eating healthy food so they believe it's okay.

It's completely unnatural to eat so little and maintain a weight that continually borders on underweight.

[Ballet Saga]

6 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

 
It's evidence that weight matters to Ballet schools and Ballet companies.( not just sensationalist journalists!)

If an application form asks for a child's weight when they have not seen the child dance then it can't just be journalists needing a story can it?

 

Have you asked the schools why they asked for the weight on the application form? Or did you just fill it out and ask no questions? Maybe that attitude isn’t really helping (if you filled it out without question). 

[Ruby Foo]

2 minutes ago, Ballet Saga said:

What you see as positive change is merely marketing and the tide will quickly turn again if it leads to more profit in the long run. 
 

And it can probably be said it’s the same for Ballet. The reason you’re not seeing any real change is because all the chatter and sensationalism on social media and in mainstream journalism, is just that, chatter and sensationalism. So it’s nothing to do with being ‘terrified’. It’s because no one is willing to have honest discussions and mainly that’s due to immediate persecution if you say something someone doesn’t like. 

 
I completely disagree.

The reason I disagree is because all our perceptions of healthy are now backed by scientific data together with social media and not just flimsy fashion.

A more accurate and stable approach than the fashions of the past.

 

[Ruby Foo]

10 minutes ago, Ballet Saga said:

Have you asked the schools why they asked for the weight on the application form? Or did you just fill it out and ask no questions? Maybe that attitude isn’t really helping (if you filled it out without question). 

I left it blank

[Trumpeting Violinist]

16 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

In my experience,  the desirable aesthetic in ballet schools & companies is still 'undernourished'.  For males & females.

I think there is a mismatch between this and the general audience's perceptions of beauty.

 

I greatly appreciate people like Steven McRae speaking up about the beauty of athleticism & how he suffered as an artist & a person, when he danced on an insufficient caloric intake... to meet the boyish aesthetic.

That's interesting - and how do they expect the "undernourished" dancers to lift a ballerina, whether she is undernourished too or "healthy body"?

[Ballet Saga]

8 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

 
I completely disagree.

The reason I disagree is because all our perceptions of healthy are now backed by scientific data together with social media and not just flimsy fashion.

A more accurate and stable approach than the fashions of the past.

 

What scientific data? 

[DD Driver]

The young men do significant weight training in most vocational schools. The weight of the dancers that they are lifting are not great & the time spent lifting them is also not frequent or long.

[Ballet Saga]

28 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

In my experience,  the desirable aesthetic in ballet schools & companies is still 'undernourished'.  For males & females.

I think there is a mismatch between this and the general audience's perceptions of beauty.

 

I greatly appreciate people like Steven McRae speaking up about the beauty of athleticism & how he suffered as an artist & a person, when he danced on an insufficient caloric intake... to meet the boyish aesthetic.

It’s hard to judge if someone is ‘undernourished’. It’s an opinion on looking at someone but to label someone as ‘undernourished’ is a big jump to make. 
 

[Ballet Saga]

3 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

The young men do significant weight training in most vocational schools. The weight of the dancers that they are lifting are not great & the time spent lifting them is also not frequent or long.

A male professional dancer told me that lifting has a significant effect on the body. Especially when doing it often (unlike in school). He said flexibility can be lost and encouraged my son to work on it now because of this. Maybe the roles of men in ballet and how it harms their bodies is often ignored because so many more girls train than boys.  
 

 

 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

10 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

The young men do significant weight training in most vocational schools. The weight of the dancers that they are lifting are not great & the time spent lifting them is also not frequent or long.

That was exactly my question - you won't be able to do weight training if you're undernourished, you simply won't have the energy.

[Ruby Foo]

1 minute ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

That was exactly my question - you won't be able to do weight training if you're undernourished, you simply won't have the energy.

This is so not true.

Some humans ( many ballet dancers) will push themselves beyond what is possible time and time again.

I have witnessed dancers get through whole days of professional classes and rehearsals on a glass of plj ( lemon juice) and an apple. And not just an odd day but over and over. I shared a room with one!

[DD Driver]

17 minutes ago, Ballet Saga said:

It’s hard to judge if someone is ‘undernourished’. It’s an opinion on looking at someone but to label someone as ‘undernourished’ is a big jump to make. 
 

 

Yes, seeing sunken cheeks and protruding ribs & collar bones does not automatically mean someone is undernourished. 

Seeing large numbers of people who look like this, could be cause for concern and may be distracting to an audience & for journalists there to write a review.

 

Under nourished dancers do actively participate in vocational classes & companies... until they don't.

[Pas de Quatre]

Having just seen BRB2, it is clear that the dancers Carlos Acosta selected do not appear undernourished and some have a fairly athletic build. It may be changing in the ballet world but will take time.  To put it in context, the majority of UK population are overweight and what is considered normal now is much larger than in previous generations. If you look at old films, photos and TV programmes, this becomes very evident.

[Lifeafterballet]

6 hours ago, DD Driver said:

The young men do significant weight training in most vocational schools. The weight of the dancers that they are lifting are not great & the time spent lifting them is also not frequent or long.

In our experience, the vocational school my Ds attended did not teach the young men correct technique or prepared their bodies to lift the young ladies. It was just expected that they would “get them up there” and if they didn’t they weren’t judged to be a good partner. That was more by the young ladies, rather than the teachers I add. For this reason alone, my son sustained a very painful lumbar spine fracture. The psychological back pain and fear goes on far longer than the physical. 

And yes, young male dancers have issues with their size and physique too. Sometimes it’s just not as obvious. 
 

Edited June 12 by Lifeafterballet

[Farawaydancer]

7 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

 
It's evidence that weight matters to Ballet schools and Ballet companies.( not just sensationalist journalists!)

If an application form asks for a child's weight when they have not seen the child dance then it can't just be journalists needing a story can it?

 

I’ve always just ignored that question or written ‘don’t know’. No one has ever come back to me to tell me to find out. 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

7 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

This is so not true.

Some humans ( many ballet dancers) will push themselves beyond what is possible time and time again.

I have witnessed dancers get through whole days of professional classes and rehearsals on a glass of plj ( lemon juice) and an apple. And not just an odd day but over and over. I shared a room with one!

Dancers always push themselves beyond what is possible - it's not possible for a normal human being to do huge jumps in awkward shoes. I was just surprised to read that male dancers were undernourished too - I thought it was not required by schools, as opposed to ballerinas.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

1 hour ago, Lifeafterballet said:

In our experience, the vocational school my Ds attended did not teach the young men correct technique or prepared their bodies to lift the young ladies. It was just expected that they would “get them up there” and if they didn’t they weren’t judged to be a good partner. That was more by the young ladies, rather than the teachers I add. For this reason alone, my son sustained a very painful lumbar spine fracture. The psychological back pain and fear goes on far longer than the physical. 

And yes, young male dancers have issues with their size and physique too. Sometimes it’s just not as obvious. 
 

Oh it's obvious enough from the amount of denigratory comments that short male dancers get throughout their career - Baryshnikov may have perfect technique and all the artistry, but he had massive issues with his height, and it's not something you could change much.

 

I've heard that ballerinas are often not being taught how to cooperate during lifts even though it's probably more important than their weight, and it puzzles me how both male and female dancers cope with all that after graduation.

Edited June 12 by Trumpeting Violinist

[DVDfan]

Ok,  as a zoologist, I'd say that there is considerable evolutionary advantage in being able to keep going in times of food shortage.

And also that selective pressures within the dance world mean that the successful dancers are those who have an exceptional ability to do this.

 

In the long term it isn't healthy - it's what you might call an emergency strategy.

 

 

[Lifeafterballet]

21 minutes ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

 

I've heard that ballerinas are often not being taught how to cooperate during lifts even though it's probably more important than their weight, and it puzzles me how both male and female dancers cope with all that after graduation.

My Ds has now been a professional ballet dancer in a National Company for 5 years. He wouldn’t have lasted that long if he hadn’t done his research and taught himself how to look after his body to reduce the risk of further injury. 
The learning and self management happened post vocational training. The school didn’t prepare him for company life. There now isn’t anyone standing over him, telling him he has to do the grand allegro every day in class or feel under pressure to force his turn out anymore. He now listens to and takes care of his body. It’s the only one he has and it’s got to last him far beyond his ballet dancing days. 
He has developed a passion for helping others achieve their goals, stay safe and healthy and is now a qualified personal trainer helping other dancers. 
On the side currently, but launching full time in 10 days 🎉 

[Anna C]

9 hours ago, Ballet Saga said:

Not just girls so please stop with that. 

Please don’t try to shut people down, @Ballet Saga.  One of the rules of this forum is that we are not disrespectful to one another, and your combative tone is not helpful.  
 

Your experiences differ from other people’s, but that does not make their experiences invalid.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

55 minutes ago, Lifeafterballet said:

My Ds has now been a professional ballet dancer in a National Company for 5 years. He wouldn’t have lasted that long if he hadn’t done his research and taught himself how to look after his body to reduce the risk of further injury. 
The learning and self management happened post vocational training. The school didn’t prepare him for company life. There now isn’t anyone standing over him, telling him he has to do the grand allegro every day in class or feel under pressure to force his turn out anymore. He now listens to and takes care of his body. It’s the only one he has and it’s got to last him far beyond his ballet dancing days. 
He has developed a passion for helping others achieve their goals, stay safe and healthy and is now a qualified personal trainer helping other dancers. 
On the side currently, but launching full time in 10 days 🎉 

I find it shocking they don't teach that at schools given how dangerous that is 😨 Well done to your son for overcoming his injury and helping others! 👏

[alison]

1 hour ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

I've heard that ballerinas are often not being taught how to cooperate during lifts even though it's probably more important than their weight, and it puzzles me how both male and female dancers cope with all that after graduation.

 

If I recall correctly, when Edward Watson and Lauren Cuthbertson made their debuts in Romeo and Juliet, they were having trouble with one of the pas de deux - I think it was the "dead" one in the tomb scene - because she hadn't been told that she needed to invisibly "assist" him in the lifts.

[Chira]

12 hours ago, Out-the-other-side said:

So sad that we simple seem unable to break free and such a wasted opportunity from someone with such huge influence over the UK ballet scene. 

 

Great post 

[Chira]

12 hours ago, Ballet Saga said:

He was drawn into that situation by the journalist and then it’s been used to sensationalise. Very unfair on him and very unfair it’s now being used for an agenda. 

I believe someone as influential in the ballet world as Carlos Acosta is needs to expect that these are the kinds of questions that might be asked and for me they warrant a considered response.
By suggesting there is ‘nothing to see here,’ Acosta unfortunately reinforced the agenda that is now trending. 
A missed opportunity. 

[Millicent]

I'm surprised that he hasn't given a public statement in response yet.

 

I welcome the publicity over this and haven't actually seen anyone call for him to be "cancelled". In fact, from what I've read a lot of people still hold him in very high regard but are nevertheless disappointed that his comments centred on women needing to be a certain weight so that the men can lift them. 

 

I hope that he responds on this, having genuinely reflected on why his comments have hit such a nerve.

 

I haven't seen any sensitisation of this and think trying to shut down conversations about it is counterproductive. More conversations about weight, health, wellbeing and teachers and companies' expectations should be welcomed, not hushed up.

[Ballet Saga]

2 hours ago, Anna C said:

Please don’t try to shut people down, @Ballet Saga.  One of the rules of this forum is that we are not disrespectful to one another, and your combative tone is not helpful.  
 

Your experiences differ from other people’s, but that does not make their experiences invalid.

Is it a rule of the forum to allow sexism? I asked the person politely to stop reinforcing a sexist viewpoint, it’s nothing to do with being combative. To assume it’s just girls that suffer from mental health issues relating to weight or that they’re the only ones that are told things about weight is reinforcing a sexist idea that’s within the ballet world. I would have thought the forum would be against doing that. Please don’t ‘pick’ on me, it would be more useful to make sure sexism isn’t being tolerated. 

[Ballet Saga]

Just now, Millicent said:

I'm surprised that he hasn't given a public statement in response yet.

 

I welcome the publicity over this and haven't actually seen anyone call for him to be "cancelled". In fact, from what I've read a lot of people still hold him in very high regard but are nevertheless disappointed that his comments centred on women needing to be a certain weight so that the men can lift them. 

 

I hope that he responds on this, having genuinely reflected on why his comments have hit such a nerve.

 

I haven't seen any sensitisation of this and think trying to shut down conversations about it is counterproductive. More conversations about weight, health, wellbeing and teachers and companies' expectations should be welcomed, not hushed up.

Do you want serious conversation or do you want a wave of discussion on social media that inevitably goes nowhere? It’s the latter that is happening. 

[Millicent]

I believe you can have serious discussions on social media that contribute to societal change. Ever heard of #metoo?

[Ballet Saga]

2 minutes ago, Millicent said:

I believe you can have serious discussions on social media that contribute to societal change. Ever heard of #metoo?

Ask a lot of women if they are treated any better (not abused, murdered, treated badly by police etc) after #metoo. Also minorities and the working classes have seen no change. It is very combative to ask me sarcastically if I have heard of #metoo. 

[Millicent]

You said it was inevitable that discussion on social media "goes nowhere" so I gave an example of a social media movement that created societal change. #Metoo didn't change the way that every man acts or stop abuse/rape but it did have a big effect on society and raise huge awareness about sexual harassment and abuse. Societal changes don't happen quickly. #Metoo has had huge positive effects in society. Would you prefer that people didn't talk about it?

 

I don't understand why anyone would want to suppress discussion about the big issue of health and wellbeing of dancers. I wish more people would talk about it.

[Millicent]

Also not sure how you can claim that "minorities and the working class" were somehow not affected by the #Metoo movement. Very odd. 

[Colman]

 

11 hours ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

That was exactly my question - you won't be able to do weight training if you're undernourished, you simply won't have the energy.

You will be able to, you just won't grow much strength. Which means you'll be limited in what you can lift.

 

 

 

 

[Anna C]

28 minutes ago, Ballet Saga said:

Is it a rule of the forum to allow sexism? I asked the person politely to stop reinforcing a sexist viewpoint, it’s nothing to do with being combative. To assume it’s just girls that suffer from mental health issues relating to weight or that they’re the only ones that are told things about weight is reinforcing a sexist idea that’s within the ballet world. I would have thought the forum would be against doing that. Please don’t ‘pick’ on me, it would be more useful to make sure sexism isn’t being tolerated. 

Telling another forum member to “just stop” is not asking politely.  Parents of daughters can only speak about their own experiences, which is what I saw happening.  
 

I’m not picking on anyone; I’m reminding you of the rules to which you agreed upon joining.