company auditions, why so few places...?

[Ruby Foo]

8 hours ago, LinMM said:

Have only just read this thread. 

 

I think it pays to always have a plan B

 

This considers what would happen if a child studying Ballet /Music whatever (but especially Ballet as there are so few jobs available in the end)  turn out to be not successful in even reaching end of training. 

I do understand the dad here who wanted to see more of his daughter…

good for him ….don’t think this would have been my dads response back in the 50’s lol 😂 boarding school would have been okay if I had been good enough to win a scholarship!!!
However even back then without the huge amount of information available to people these days he was acutely aware of possible job prospects! They were not good even back then. 
So there was an insistence on a plan B 

Luckily I had one in mind which eventually ( sadly at the time) had to come into play and which was eventually a good choice though. 

A friend of mine who worked in the Arts scouting for good Dance projects to support said she was always surprised at how many parents had no plan B for their children…they seemed to expect it all to work out successfully inspite of evidence to the contrary for most in training sad as that may be. 
 

What has shocked me reading here is the audition process the way it is. 
If an AD is looking for just 8 dancers in reality…it seems ridiculous if certainly not an open audition ( so have had access to videos etc) to have 200 dancers be looked at. I know videos don’t always show off certain types of dancers talents who only really come alive when performing to a live audience …but even a 100 dancers should have sufficed for 8 places! 
I would have thought looking at less dancers more closely is better than a brief glimpse of hundreds of dancers!! 
One can’t help feeling money is the motivator here as presumably students pay for these auditions? 
 

If it’s true as read up thread that some Companies have to give auditions for non existent jobs to maintain their Grant then that rule should be done away with as soon as possible!!! To me that seems absurd. What a waste of everybodies time! 

I do hope with the new Government that some sort of closer links with Europe and UK can be achieved if only for younger people to study and start up jobs etc. 

 

I would actually go further than this and suggest that plan b should really be plan A. And the old plan A should only be considered in the most exceptional circumstances and as late as possible when one can determine how realistic it is as a career.
Looking at top tennis players who played many sports at top level before deciding to specialise in tennis. 
Personally, where classical ballet is concerned in today's world I believe it's best to abandon the dreaming  and focus on the practical.

 

 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

9 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

My kids started specialising a year ago (a dancer and a classical  singer) and I’m sure that the years of learning science, music, history,  art literature etc  can all be drawn upon later on - they both loved learning those subjects while attending ordinary state schools. My two know that their fields are very competitive and that there are no guarantees. They are one hundred percent dedicated and if things don’t work out they will draw upon that determination and find a new path. 

Does your singing child consider TikTok/other online platforms as a potential source of income or have friends who managed to do it successfully? There seems to be a huge shift in performing arts towards online entertainment, but I'm just wondering if it can pay the bills...

 

Asking as a parent of a musical child who decided to specialise quite early.

 

Also, having just seen Das Bundesjugendballett which was really good, I'm just wondering why not so many people consider Germany for upper schools? University fees are much lower even without the EU passport, I guess dance schools are similarly priced there? Are they more competitive than here? Or is it because they're not so big on pure classical ballet? 

Edited July 8 by Trumpeting Violinist

[Tiaramum]

On 08/07/2024 at 06:04, Out-the-other-side said:

Apologies if this has already been shared but, going down a bit of a rabbit hole this morning searching for something else, I stumbled across this  Parliamentary Committee report (from 2018)  which seems to be discussing the impact of Brexit on the UK dance industry. Nothing new in it, especially for those of us with children who graduated during that time, but a sobering reminder of the odds of gaining UK and European employment upon graduation and the particular difficulties faced by UK passport holders.  
Not posting to be political or reignite inflammatory discussions but because I was unaware that the issue had been discussed at this level and would like to know more regarding the outcome/findings  if anyone can signpost. 
 

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/89843/html/

 

this!!! 100% THIS. 

[Kerfuffle]

10 hours ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

Does your singing child consider TikTok/other online platforms as a potential source of income or have friends who managed to do it successfully? There seems to be a huge shift in performing arts towards online entertainment, but I'm just wondering if it can pay the bills...

 

Asking as a parent of a musical child who decided to specialise quite early.

 

Also, having just seen Das Bundesjugendballett which was really good, I'm just wondering why not so many people consider Germany for upper schools? University fees are much lower even without the EU passport, I guess dance schools are similarly priced there? Are they more competitive than here? Or is it because they're not so big on pure classical ballet? 

My son is at a conservatoire and has been advised  not to post his singing on social media, mostly because he’s only at the very beginning of a very long training process (up to 7 years potentially) so anything out there needs to be at its very best. There are young people doing this but I think although lucrative it can be detrimental later on when auditioning. 
 

German schools have a very good reputation, there are at least 5 great schools  for training - their teaching style is Vaganova. They are also attached to well funded ballet companies which is always an important bonus and the fee cost is much cheaper. German classical is a high standard and so is their contemporary so again a great place to train because these days you need to be excellent at both. Vocational students definitely apply there, plus the sorts of high level students who attend YAGP and other international competitions (summer schools, short stay visits are the prizes offered). 
 

 

[Emeralds]

10 hours ago, Trumpeting Violinist said:

Also, having just seen Das Bundesjugendballett which was really good, I'm just wondering why not so many people consider Germany for upper schools? University fees are much lower even without the EU passport, I guess dance schools are similarly priced there? Are they more competitive than here? 

The John Cranko school affiliated with Stuttgart Ballet and the Neumeier school affiliated with Hamburg Ballet have been very popular with international students for years- with students from North America, South America, Japan, China, other parts of Europe, and other parts of Asia all applying to get in. Scholarships are available so it is worthwhile researching it- if your child does win a substantial scholarship it could be cheaper undertaking upper school training there than staying in Britain, even with the costs of going abroad added in.

 

The training is top notch at both schools but it is tough to get in.

 

Language is actually not as big a problem as one might fear- many students from South America and Asia arrive there knowing hardly any German but pick it up as they progress through the school. There are lots of people speaking English or who know English in German dance companies and German ballet schools to help new arrivals who aren't fluent in German yet. It's certainly worth considering for upper school/pre-professional training. 

[meadowblythe]

38 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

My son is at a conservatoire and has been advised  not to post his singing on social media, mostly because he’s only at the very beginning of a very long training process (up to 7 years potentially) so anything out there needs to be at its very best. There are young people doing this but I think although lucrative it can be detrimental later on when auditioning. 

 

 

One of the few branches of the arts that makes ballet look like a cheap option (ducks for cover ...)  If Opera, 7 years is possibly an underestimate!

[Kerfuffle]

Yes exactly, so many years to train and into late 20s for a debut !! At least the career is likely to be a longer one and if successful could be more lucrative than ballet ! 

[Peanut68]

I think also there is possibly more funding streams along the way? Almost an archaic system of philanthropic support for protégés? In fact, I think this does sort of still happen in USA & other countries possibly too in the ballet world? Do wonder how ‘regulated’ to avoid abuse of power this sort of thing is… no one really views the ‘artist & their muse’ or the ‘benefactor & their stable of artists’ as wildly healthy relationships either these days! 

[Kerfuffle]

Classical music seems to have more funds you can apply for, often through competitions - people set up charities to help pay for training. British students of course get the student loan so the funding becomes more of an issue with post grads. I think all young people need to be careful if it’s an individual arrangement but this isn’t just relevant to young singers. 

[Peanut68]

Of course ballet also has competitions… I wonder though if the music ones are as expensive to attend? It seems more that colleges/conservatories prepare students for these (& pay or provide funding routes  too?) Ballet perhaps could work more along these lines?? It seems odd as IMHO ballet surely has a broader reach as I certainly know of many more families where kids have danced as opposed to families where children have had singing lessons - even at basic level let alone Opera! Is it that ballet is still seen in highbrow settings as the add on poor relation to opera? 

[Kerfuffle]

I don’t know the cost of entering competitions and they vary from small to very significant international ones so there is a huge range. Students always train one to one at conservatoire so while there they are developing their repertoire on an individual basis (unlike ballet upper school where you are in a class context and less likely to get private attention). 
A professional opera singer is freelance and has an agent rather than joining a company so the career ladder is very different - being heard individually is crucial. Unlike ballet a  classical voice is in its infancy in first year of conservatoire  (most students being in late teens/early 20s) especially boys, whose adult voices are pretty new. Classical  music  does attract far more funding  than ballet - I noticed this last year when I was looking into charities to help young musicians - I couldn’t see the equivalent for my DD. I think overall I have spent more on dance lessons than my son’s singing as child - he was a chorister so was actually paid ! Unfortunately I think more and more ballet students   feel they have to have to join the arms race of private lessons, fancy intensives etc to keep up. 

Edited July 9 by Kerfuffle

[Peanut68]

Yes, Kerfuffle - exactly this! 

[Trumpeting Violinist]

10 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

My son is at a conservatoire and has been advised  not to post his singing on social media, mostly because he’s only at the very beginning of a very long training process (up to 7 years potentially) so anything out there needs to be at its very best. There are young people doing this but I think although lucrative it can be detrimental later on when auditioning.  
 

 

Oh that's interesting, it never crossed my mind that a student's video could be detrimental to auditions later on and conservatoires discourage that... I can see their point but surely panels should understand that student's singing is a work in progress in any case 🤔

[Trumpeting Violinist]

4 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Of course ballet also has competitions… I wonder though if the music ones are as expensive to attend? It seems more that colleges/conservatories prepare students for these (& pay or provide funding routes  too?) Ballet perhaps could work more along these lines?? It seems odd as IMHO ballet surely has a broader reach as I certainly know of many more families where kids have danced as opposed to families where children have had singing lessons - even at basic level let alone Opera! Is it that ballet is still seen in highbrow settings as the add on poor relation to opera? 

Well, I know waaaaay more families where children sing or play instruments - simply because DD does lots of music 😁

Not sure if ballet has broader reach - more highbrow than opera IMO.

[Trumpeting Violinist]

5 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Of course ballet also has competitions… I wonder though if the music ones are as expensive to attend? It seems more that colleges/conservatories prepare students for these (& pay or provide funding routes  too?) Ballet perhaps could work more along these lines?? It seems odd as IMHO ballet surely has a broader reach as I certainly know of many more families where kids have danced as opposed to families where children have had singing lessons - even at basic level let alone Opera! Is it that ballet is still seen in highbrow settings as the add on poor relation to opera? 

I don't know the costs involved in attending international dance competitions and whether European students stand any chance there, but music competitions are relatively cheap and totally pointless for Europeans until late teens. It's pretty much Battle Royale based on 5+ hours of practice a day - I don't think it's physically possible to do this in ballet from age 2-4 as it happens in strings/piano.

Edited July 9 by Trumpeting Violinist

[Kerfuffle]

I think ballet is appreciated by a wider range of society than opera, mostly because Nutcracker gets small children hooked at a young age! Opera is an acquired taste for most, sadly, unless you’re from Italy. It’s considered elitist. 
The competitions for strings/piano sound very intense for tiny children! 
The reason that they don’t recommend a social media presence is that a judge might look up your profile before a competition and it can influence the outcome if not your best work. 

 

 

[theunderdog]

On 08/07/2024 at 07:50, Jan McNulty said:

A post has been hidden on this thread (and 2 other threads) as it contravenes this rule:

 

 

Are we allowed to quote "that school in hinkley"?

[Jan McNulty]

3 hours ago, theunderdog said:

Are we allowed to quote "that school in hinkley"?

No.

[Emeralds]

Sarasota Ballet in Florida, USA, have announced that they are holding company auditions to hire dancers. The company  ie led by former Royal Ballet and Birmingham Royal Ballet dancers Iain Webb and Margaret Barbieri, and the company dances ballets by Ashtoh, MacMillan, de Valois, Wheeldon, Bintley, Tuckett and other British choreographers along with choreographers familiar to American audiences like Balanchine, Robbins, Tharp etc and the classics. The company has a number of British dancers in the junior and senior  ranks. Best of luck to anyone's offspring who is applying! Their website has more details about applying, as well as the roster, location, etc.

https://www.sarasotaballet.org/company-auditions/

[Allwrong]

Totally irrelevant but seeing the name Margaret Barbieri takes me back to my childhood and the RB Sadlers Wells big top tours to a site just round the corner from where we lived. Magical times, and we girls all fell for MB, and would hang around hoping for a glimpse of her offstage. Dancers stayed with local families, and I was most envious as my family wasn’t  involved ! The father of a great friend was, however, astonished  overjoyed to host a now retired dancer he had been captivated by on the ROH stage as a young man!

These experiences made me into a life-long ballet fan. Worth taking ballet to the provinces…

[Derin's Mom]

Since I am the one who started this topic, I may give a summary of the 1st season of auditions of my DD and friends. Graduated from a really good school in Europe, only 4 of the 13 girls have found some sort of contract, a few others have chosen to pay for a Junior Co. (or we may say it is a bridge program) and some chose to spend 1 more year at the school to obtain a BA diploma. 

Very difficult and stressing year it has been. I have seen many others from other European schools facing the same thing. 

I clearly understand that the supply-demand chain is very unequal so I assume things will not change for the better in the coming future either.

[Fiz]

1 hour ago, Derin's Mom said:

Since I am the one who started this topic, I may give a summary of the 1st season of auditions of my DD and friends. Graduated from a really good school in Europe, only 4 of the 13 girls have found some sort of contract, a few others have chosen to pay for a Junior Co. (or we may say it is a bridge program) and some chose to spend 1 more year at the school to obtain a BA diploma. 

Very difficult and stressing year it has been. I have seen many others from other European schools facing the same thing. 

I clearly understand that the supply-demand chain is very unequal so I assume things will not change for the better in the coming future either.

I hope your dd is one of the fortunate few, @Derin's Mom. 

[Ruby Foo]

2 hours ago, Derin's Mom said:

Since I am the one who started this topic, I may give a summary of the 1st season of auditions of my DD and friends. Graduated from a really good school in Europe, only 4 of the 13 girls have found some sort of contract, a few others have chosen to pay for a Junior Co. (or we may say it is a bridge program) and some chose to spend 1 more year at the school to obtain a BA diploma. 

Very difficult and stressing year it has been. I have seen many others from other European schools facing the same thing. 

I clearly understand that the supply-demand chain is very unequal so I assume things will not change for the better in the coming future either.

Thank you for sharing your experience and the update. My heart goes out to you both and hope your daughter will be rewarded for all her endeavours, if not now, then soon.

[Derin's Mom]

3 hours ago, Fiz said:

I hope your dd is one of the fortunate few, @Derin's Mom. 

she will complete the BA with one more year at the same school.

[Fiz]

37 minutes ago, Derin's Mom said:

she will complete the BA with one more year at the same school.

I wish her the very best of luck and success.