Free/ cheaper vocational schools

[tippytoed1234567890]

Hi! I was wondering what vocational schools are tuition-free? I do know that the john cranko schule and the berlin state ballet as well as zurich dance academy is tuition free, but are there any others?

[Neverdancedjustamum]

Perhaps not free but a lot of European ones are cheaper. Dutch National Ballet School for example has lower fees than any of the well-known full time vocational schools in the U.K. (I think it used to be even cheaper when the U.K. was in the EU).  I believe Academie Princess Grace in Monaco works out cheaper too tuition fees + accommodation than say WL (if you don’t take into consideration any possible funding). However, getting into APG is notoriously hard, harder I believe than any of the U.K. schools including the top ones, hence their student body is very small and obviously carefully handpicked.  They usually stream their end of year show and each and every one of their students appear to be stunning performers, both technically and artistically. Another excellent school (in my opinion) is BTB (Basel).  The best thing about some European schools is that they are very confident in streaming/making public their end of year shows or final assessment classes. I think it was last year, I saw APG and Paris Opera Ballet School’s online and they were amazing. No elaborate sets or costumes. Just students in plain coloured leotards. I believe Dutch NBS also did it this year.  You can also easily “YouTube” Vaganova, TAZ and BTB classes online. I am very impressed with schools who have the confidence to do this. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Lifeafterballet]

My Ds dances with a European ballet company and all of his colleagues that trained in Europe did so for free. They are horrified how much we had to pay for his, and his sisters, U.K. training. 
If I knew then what I know now…..

[alison]

Welcome to the forum, tippytoed1234567890!

 

I suspect the same may apply to further education: I remember being amazed at how cheap the university tuition fees were for the year in France   (That was a long time ago, though).

[Neverdancedjustamum]

1 hour ago, alison said:

Welcome to the forum, tippytoed1234567890!

 

I suspect the same may apply to further education: I remember being amazed at how cheap the university tuition fees were for the year in France   (That was a long time ago, though).

Absolutely, @alison !  I feel the same. Unless my DCs gain places in U.K. unis where they can get their £9250’s worth, I’d rather they go overseas for uni. And this is coming from someone who can’t bear the thought of her DCs living away from home (certainly before upper school/6th form age) and has worked in higher education for over a decade…

[alison]

Trouble is, for many of those some mastery at least of a foreign language is necessary.  Can you get a degree in Germany without mastering German?  Maybe these days, given that I think a lot of German courses may be run in English, but I'd imagine it must still be difficult.

[art_enthusiast]

7 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

They usually stream their end of year show and each and every one of their students appear to be stunning performers, both technically and artistically. Another excellent school (in my opinion) is BTB (Basel).  The best thing about some European schools is that they are very confident in streaming/making public their end of year shows or final assessment classes. I think it was last year, I saw APG and Paris Opera Ballet School’s online and they were amazing. No elaborate sets or costumes. Just students in plain coloured leotards. I believe Dutch NBS also did it this year. 

Just out of interest, could I ask where you streamed these end of year shows? I'd love to see the APG one this year.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

24 minutes ago, art_enthusiast said:

Just out of interest, could I ask where you streamed these end of year shows? I'd love to see the APG one this year.

APG was through the Les Ballets de Monte-Carlo website and they usually advertise the live steaming of their exams around May. Here is the link to the trailer last year:

 

 

I think it only cost €5 at the time. 
 

I can’t remember how I accessed POBS - it was probably through their website too, and again, for not much.

 

Both are well worth the steaming fee. The students of both schools are absolutely stunning to watch, the shows fuss-free, they usually wear very simple dancewear (no costumes or props etc although POBS’ was in the Palau’s Garnier which is pretty much unbeatable as a backdrop!).

[Kate_N]

While it always sounds tempting to go for the very low tuition fees in mainland Europe, you get what you pay for. Most large European universities have very few of the things that UK students might expect - there’s not the emphasis on the “student experience “ that is demanded here. Degrees are at least 4 years and from the experiences of 2 generations of my French and German family members, classes are large. There’s very little small group teaching, seminars start at around 25-30 students, and tutorials are fairly non-existent. The education in terms of standards is top notch - but students are expected to sink or swim.  There’s very little of the spoon- feeding through that unfortunately we seem to have to do with a minority of our UK undergrads. There are very few arrangements for halls of residence.

 

none of these things is necessarily bad - just different. But I know as a UK academic, my working life is arranged very differently from my mainland European colleagues. 
 

And while I know of some degree programmes which are taught in English plus the native language, I think that you’d need the native language to complete a degree and certainly to live in the country.

 

you might also think about what you want to do after your degree. Will you stay in the country? Will prospective UK employers recognise the substance of your degree? And so on.

 

For dance training of course all of the above is far less applicable. Although I should think that tuition fees are now payable given that UK nationals are no longer European citizens.  I think there is a transition period, but at some point UK citizens are going to be counted as Overseas students for tuition fee purposes in the rest of Europe 

 

I would also imagine that the standard at, say, the Cranko School, is at least as tough as the elite UK schools, such as RBS, or ENB.

[Kerfuffle]

You can check out the ballet class at John Cranko on YouTube. I think far more European schools post this kind of thing which is helpful when evaluating the standard and also style of dancing as well as their type of dancer.  Not many British schools show what their average class is like so it’s harder to know. 

[Pas de Quatre]

It is many years ago now, but we did send a DVD application to the Cranko school for my dd.  The format wasn't compatible with their equipement so they asked us to resend - but in the meantime we had accepted a UK vocational school offer.  It is one of those things I sometimes wonder "What if...."

 

However as regards University degrees, the whole concept in Europe is very different.  I lived and worked as a dancer in France and Spain and many of my friends were students.   Although that was a long time ago now, I don't think a lot has changed.

 

Firstly, most people go to the University in their home town - it is a continuation of school in many ways.  You enrol for the course you want to do without the same sort of competition for places that occurs in UK. So practically everyone can enter the first year.  It is the exams at the end of that year that are difficult and make a selection, you cannot proceed to the second year if you haven't passed.  It is quite common to repeat the first year - even several times!

 

Also degrees can be taken over several years.  Many course are constructed so that they are effectively part-time while the student holds down an ordinary job.  So rather than graduating aged 21-22, many European students will be in their late 20s or older.

 

This is all quite different from dance training where the top Vocational schools are highly selective.

 

[meadowblythe]

 

Students who don't get places in medical schools often end up in places like Czechia and Bulgaria.  Courses are taught in English and qualifications were accepted, in EU days, here.  Don't know the current situation.  I know some Dutch university courses are taught in English as, presumably, are those in Ireland.  My DS once met one of my ex-students in a bar in the town where they both lived!  

 

As others have said, it's different.  Also, the standard of accommodation is not what a UK student used to their £200+ a week ensuite would be expecting.  Sharing a double bed with a stranger is not unknown.  But the cost of the accommodation reflects this.

 

However, if you are up for an adventure and realistic about what you are getting into, it does offer the opportunity to live abroad, understand different cultures and gain a degree without a mountain of student debt.

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

55 minutes ago, meadowblythe said:

 

Students who don't get places in medical schools often end up in places like Czechia and Bulgaria.  Courses are taught in English and qualifications were accepted, in EU days, here.  Don't know the current situation.  I know some Dutch university courses are taught in English as, presumably, are those in Ireland.  My DS once met one of my ex-students in a bar in the town where they both lived!  

 

As others have said, it's different.  Also, the standard of accommodation is not what a UK student used to their £200+ a week ensuite would be expecting.  Sharing a double bed with a stranger is not unknown.  But the cost of the accommodation reflects this.

 

However, if you are up for an adventure and realistic about what you are getting into, it does offer the opportunity to live abroad, understand different cultures and gain a degree without a mountain of student debt.

 

I’m not sure about Europe but accommodation and pastoral care in Australian and American universities are probably comparable to U.K. ones, with the latter having a very campus-feel with lots of things to do for students within campus. This varies of course from institution but I often think that if it’s a small consolation, the £9250/year university fees here are small in comparison to the top private American universities’ fees, where one can expect to pay over $70k a year for tuition fee and accommodation and a typical American undergrad degree is 4 years. They do have federal aid but it’s still crippling debt for most students. 
 

This does digress from the OP’s original question so I do apologise. Incidentally, I think even SAB’s tuition plus accommodation (in the heart of NYC!) is still less than WL’s if I’m not mistaken. The audition I believe is very rigorous - in the form of their summer intensive so your audition is basically 5-6 weeks long! 

[Peony]

SAB doesn’t include academics though does it? Same with APG, does not include fees for academics.

I guess the dance CAT is the equivalent in UK where you can also access state education so it is cheaper (and MDS funded if applicable). Is that an option?

[Peanut68]

On 13/06/2022 at 06:02, tippytoed1234567890 said:

Hi! I was wondering what vocational schools are tuition-free? I do know that the john cranko schule and the berlin state ballet as well as zurich dance academy is tuition free, but are there any others?

I'm using a very old computer & not my phone so no access to usual emojis....but lets just say the title of this thread had me snorting with laughter as a battalion of pigs flew by!

[Peanut68]

To add....there are of course funded places & I do think the CAT scheme as others mention seems IMHO a much better use of funds - both family & government. I do think this scheme needs extending & with North/South leveling up; this time it's the South that seems to be missing out with schemes thin on the ground & with the only course with a Classical emphasis being in Leeds....

[Neverdancedjustamum]

27 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

I'm using a very old computer & not my phone so no access to usual emojis....but lets just say the title of this thread had me snorting with laughter as a battalion of pigs flew by!

The image of pigs flying made me laugh. Although on a more serious note, I do think that to even get to that stage where one has a realistic chance of getting offered a place is already not cheap! No personal experience of this but I even wonder if once in full time school, even with a funded place, does it get cheaper? Just thinking of summer intensives, uniform, shoes, travel to and from school to pick up drop off, coaching etc etc, it can’t be that much cheaper to life before full time surely. The obvious thing that’s made easier I guess is the driving and waiting around time and the difficulty of juggling “normal academic schooling” with dance classes. Vaguely  related to this thread, I was reminded of the fact that full time lower vocational schools isn’t always the best/only way to get to a good upper school a few years down the line. Just the last few weeks I’ve seen on social media “non full time” DCs get offered places in prestigious institutions such as Zurich, Basel and Cranko.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[dancefanatic]

2 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

To add....there are of course funded places & I do think the CAT scheme as others mention seems IMHO a much better use of funds - both family & government. I do think this scheme needs extending & with North/South leveling up; this time it's the South that seems to be missing out with schemes thin on the ground & with the only course with a Classical emphasis being in Leeds....

They have been running a trial scheme here at Swindon CAT for a ballet stream (they already do contemporary and street) but haven't yet made a decision whether to continue to offer it for the next academic year.  Here's hoping they do as we badly need a ballet CAT in the south/south west!!

[dancefanatic]

Further to my post about Swindon CAT Ballet scheme, I've just looked at their website and it appears they are planning to continue after a successful pilot scheme.

 

https://www.swindondance.org.uk/cat-swindon-ballet-programme/

 

Audition date 16th July I think!

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by dancefanatic
adding audition date

[Kerfuffle]

I received an email to say they are going ahead with the Swindon ballet CAT. It says it costs nearly 4k if you earn over 68k a year and runs for 6 hours on Sundays (doesn’t say how many weeks a year). This seems expensive if you don’t qualify for any MDS at all - more than associates with RBS! Just wondering if this typical? I would also like to know who the teachers would be and their experience. 

[Peony]

It seems quite light on hours compared to the Northern ballet CAT (same cost) but perhaps they’ve just not finalised the course and sessions in holidays yet

[Peanut68]

5 hours ago, dancefanatic said:

Further to my post about Swindon CAT Ballet scheme, I've just looked at their website and it appears they are planning to continue after a successful pilot scheme.

 

https://www.swindondance.org.uk/cat-swindon-ballet-programme/

 

Audition date 16th July I think!

 

Sadly several years too late for us.....& it would still have been a good 2.5hours drive away...but...another Ballet CAT scheme anywhere is top be applauded! Actually have just looked at it & so worth a 2.5hour drive IMHO for any serious dancers to add some extra training at vocational level whilst still being in mainstream school....I swear, if we had our time again I'd have moved to be nearer the CAT scheme iat Northern ballet in Leeds!!

Edited June 15, 2022 by Peanut68
to add...

[Kerfuffle]

I would agree that good quality training and being able to stay at home and attend a regular school is the perfect combination if possible. Great that this new scheme exists for the West Country. It’s a bit late for us though. 

[Viv]

A friend of mine has just graduated from the School of the Hamburg Ballet. The equivalent of Upper School was completely free. She had offers from other, more prestigious schools, but her family isn't well off and she couldn't afford those schools without a substantial scholarship. My friend is Australian so it's not just free for Europeans. Boarding obviously has a cost, though I believe after the first little while she ended up renting an apartment with some of the other girls in her year which cut down on costs. She's had some challenges with injuries but her and her mum wouldn't fault the pastoral care she received there. And she has now managed to secure the ultimate prize, a classical contract  

 

I was once told by a lawyer at Legal Aid (Government paid lawyers in Aus that give legal advice to those that can't afford it) that they used to not charge any fees for consultations. They told me that because it was free, people thought their advice was worthless - obviously you don't get anything good for free, no one does something for nothing! So they started charging $5. Suddenly, even though the advice didn't change, people started giving it a go because hey, they'd paid for it after all. It was a good lesson for me that just because something doesn't have a price, doesn't mean it doesn't have value  

[Mariska]

My son has just graduated from the Berlin State Ballet School, with a contract in his pocket too, and the school is free, regardless where you are from, apart from the boarding fees. There are pupils/students from all over the world and if there is also (part) funding I believe for the boarding facilities if a talented pupil can't afford it.

[Kanangra]

Even the overseas student fees in European schools are much cheaper than the UK or just about anywhere really. They are definitely a good option if you are accepted. The tuition is usually in English, though I am sure it is advantageous for students to learn the local language. We know students who went to Germany (Mannheim and Palucca) and that was their experience.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

22 minutes ago, Kanangra said:

Even the overseas student fees in European schools are much cheaper than the UK or just about anywhere really. They are definitely a good option if you are accepted. The tuition is usually in English, though I am sure it is advantageous for students to learn the local language. We know students who went to Germany (Mannheim and Palucca) and that was their experience.

This is what we found too, even after Brexit when British students were categorised under international fees. We certainly looked at schools like Dutch NBA, BTB Basel and TAZ Zurich. Even APG in Monaco worked out cheaper than full fees of some U.K. vocational schools. And all the schools we looked at would still have less fees even if we factor in possible MDS funding. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Neverdancedjustamum]

This year I’ve seen a good number of non-vocational students do very well with offers from top schools overseas for upper school. I wonder if this means that as long as you have the finances and time, full time at 11/12 years old really is not the only option. I’ve seen a handful of announcements on social media of young people who were not previously full time and yet were offered places in schools like Basel, Zurich, Cranko and Paris Opera Ballet School.  This can be quite inspirational for those who opted to stay at home and not go full time at a young age.

[Derin's Mom]

My DD is in Dutch NBA and since we are out of-EU zone we pay quite a big amount compared to EU students 😞. The major issue with some European schools is that they do not have accomodation and hence apartment renting is more costly than the school fee. Berlin and Hamburg are exceptions in dormitory opportunities.

[ba11erina]

Does anyone know how auditions work with any of the schools in Germany? Are any auditions hosted in the UK or can people apply by video?

[Derin's Mom]

15 hours ago, ba11erina said:

Does anyone know how auditions work with any of the schools in Germany? Are any auditions hosted in the UK or can people apply by video?

During Covid it was through video auditioning, but they are doing it live now. You can check their websites for dates. You usually apply and send a video wrt their requirements, they either call you to a certain audution date or invite to school for a week. And decide whether she/he is a fit or not.

[Kerfuffle]

On 27/07/2022 at 10:21, Neverdancedjustamum said:

This year I’ve seen a good number of non-vocational students do very well with offers from top schools overseas for upper school. I wonder if this means that as long as you have the finances and time, full time at 11/12 years old really is not the only option. I’ve seen a handful of announcements on social media of young people who were not previously full time and yet were offered places in schools like Basel, Zurich, Cranko and Paris Opera Ballet School.  This can be quite inspirational for those who opted to stay at home and not go full time at a young age.

I know of non vocational pupils getting into English National Ballet School , Royal Ballet Upper school as well as very highly selective European schools so it absolutely is possible to go down this route, in fact I think if you can find good training it can be more bespoke and allow young dancers to compete in YAGP/Prix de Lausanne. Geography does come into it a lot though, although there are more opportunities with zoom. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

4 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I know of non vocational pupils getting into English National Ballet School , Royal Ballet Upper school as well as very highly selective European schools so it absolutely is possible to go down this route, in fact I think if you can find good training it can be more bespoke and allow young dancers to compete in YAGP/Prix de Lausanne. Geography does come into it a lot though, although there are more opportunities with zoom. 

That’s true but also I just realised that in a lot of these cases you must have serious time and finances to back up such intensive training. Whilst I really admire the successes of some of these young dancers, it also became evident that some of them have been coached by an astounding number of teachers both here and overseas. I don’t think such time and expense can easily be afforded by most families.