Visiting Stage Door/Royal Ballet Dancers post-Covid

[Richard LH]

8 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

I think "assuming people wear them properly" is the catch.

Exactly...very often worn under the nose, hanging off one ear etc. Many people are never going to wear them "properly". In any event  I think the dehumanising aspect of mask wearing, in terms of how we are unable to see people fully, and understand and react to them through normal facial expressions, is very debilitating and needs to be taken into account. 

[LinMM]

I’ve been lucky at recent Sadlers Wells performances as on those two occasions people sitting around me have had masks on although it was a bit 50-50 in general throughout the theatre.  
I did contact the theatre after the first performance because although they said they strongly recommended and encouraged people to wear masks at all times etc etc they still allowed people to take drinks into the auditorium .....so very conducive to mask wearing lol! I know this is permitted in normal times but I would have thought a bit of a no no just at the moment. 
Both on the phone and via email they were sympathetic but the gist was they weren’t in control of the “selfish” actions of others and other theatres allowed it so it seemed to be a difficult position for them. 
Knowing everything I have gathered to date about Covid transmission I would have thought theatres are a prime place for it because of the close proximity you are to others plus the length of time etc. But am obviously willing to take the risk!! 
I do think mask wearing is a small price to ask people to pay in such a scenario even if help in a small way. I do hate them though. 

 

[Peony]

I couldn’t see in the article linked what the effectiveness of cloth masks is? 
still wearing mine as an additional measure to protect others as I’m not too worried myself. The effectiveness of everything else is minimal in comparison to vaccination, which is incredibly effective. Yet still loads of people not vaccinated, especially in London. 

[alison]

And people still getting "breakthrough" infections despite being vaccinated - not sure whether any patterns to this have been detected yet.

[Beryl H]

5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

At the Theatre Royal in Nottingham last night staff were handing out disposable masks to people who didn’t have masks with them.  Most people seemed to keep them on during the performance too.

 

That sounds like a gentle hint that worked!

[Peony]

3 hours ago, alison said:

And people still getting "breakthrough" infections despite being vaccinated - not sure whether any patterns to this have been detected yet.

 On a population basis you’re about 60% less likely to test positive and less likely to transmit it. That includes the immunosupressed/  elderly who react less well to the vaccine so you’re particular risk depends on who you are. Young health people will be less than 60% less likely to get it. 
It’s not quite as good as before we had delta but still very good. 
presuming the majority of people who have covid will isolate because they have symptoms or are doing precautionary lateral flows the risk of you catching covid from some who has been vaccinated are pretty small, the extra benefit of a face covering is pretty tiny. Covid is endemic now so people will continue to get it. At some point there has to be a reassessment of what the benefits are. Personally I think as we’re still working out how to use the vaccines with boosters and longer courses for the immunosupressed, a lot of children still not vaccinated etc the small benefit is worth it but at some point that will change. Almost everyone was wearing one prior to rule changes so I really don’t think it’s fair to judge individuals or call them selfish. If there’s a benefit they should be mandated, the responsibility rests with our government 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Peony

[Jan McNulty]

There can be additional benefits to wearing a mask as friends and I have discovered over the past year:

 

It keeps your face warmer in winter.

 

It can help when you are gardening if you suffer from hay fever.

 

It can hide a broken tooth while you are waiting for it to be repaired.

 

 

If wearing a mask means that even 1% fewer people catch Covid then we should continue wearing them in situations where it is more likely to spread.

[Beryl H]

I also find that it keeps my nose and mouth protected in cold, windy weather so I can breathe more easily, plus I don't have to wear make-up 🙂

[Peony]

The effect will be much, much smaller than 1% reduction in cases though, because someone with covid would have to be present and transmit it.

I have respiratory disease and genuinely can’t tolerate cloth so I’m unfortunately contributing to the enormous impact on the environment. Daughter has had to step up acne treatment because masks exacerbate it. It just depends when you think the down sides reach the tipping point. Personally I think that should be done by the qualified experts rather than on an individual basis 

[Jan McNulty]

I agree about experts Peony but they can't seem to agree amongst themselves.  

 

Dr Chris Smith and Professor Linda Bauld, who are usually on BBC Breakfast on Saturday mornings both seem to speak sensibly and they both said they are still wearing masks in crowded indoor places.

[capybara]

6 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Exactly...very often worn under the nose, hanging off one ear etc. Many people are never going to wear them "properly". In any event  I think the dehumanising aspect of mask wearing, in terms of how we are unable to see people fully, and understand and react to them through normal facial expressions, is very debilitating and needs to be taken into account. 

 

Well, I've been very interested in how easily people seem to recognise me and I them - even in the street or places where we wouldn't normally expect to encounter one another. So the masks can't be that much of an impediment. And, after all, a lot of expression is in one's eyes.  I do not feel dehumanised myself.

[zxDaveM]

47 minutes ago, Peony said:

If there’s a benefit they should be mandated, the responsibility rests with our government 

 

we're doomed!

[DanJL]

1 hour ago, Peony said:

The effect will be much, much smaller than 1% reduction in cases though, because someone with covid would have to be present and transmit it.

I have respiratory disease and genuinely can’t tolerate cloth so I’m unfortunately contributing to the enormous impact on the environment. Daughter has had to step up acne treatment because masks exacerbate it. It just depends when you think the down sides reach the tipping point. Personally I think that should be done by the qualified experts rather than on an individual basis 

I think that statement is completely unjustified by any evidence. There is surely no doubt that in crowded, indoor situations if the majority of people wear masks there will some reduction in the number of people catching covid. Perhaps there are no definitive studies on how many, but any reduction in people catching this awful virus is surely to be appreciated. 

[Lizbie1]

I'm finding it very striking how many posting on this forum are wearing masks in indoor settings (and with strong opinions about it) as opposed to the proportion that they are observing wearing masks.

[Peony]

Just now, DanJL said:

I think that statement is completely unjustified by any evidence. There is surely no doubt that in crowded, indoor situations if the majority of people wear masks there will some reduction in the number of people catching covid. Perhaps there are no definitive studies on how many, but any reduction in people catching this awful virus is surely to be appreciated. 

It’s not unjustified to say it’s much less than 1% benefit overall, you just have to look at the statistics! Work out the probability of anyone having covid in the venue, then the probability that they will transit it (particularly if vaccinated), then the benefit of a mask. It comes to a very small number overall 

[DanJL]

1 hour ago, Peony said:

It’s not unjustified to say it’s much less than 1% benefit overall, you just have to look at the statistics! Work out the probability of anyone having covid in the venue, then the probability that they will transit it (particularly if vaccinated), then the benefit of a mask. It comes to a very small number overall 

Well the current best estimate is that 1 in 90 people in England are infected. Remembering that a third of those show no symptoms and a decent amount more will be in the early stages before symptoms appear. The vaccine cuts transition but only by a small amount. Then thinking about how many people at a packed venue will be sat within 2 metres of you, plus people you might encounter in the intervals etc. surely equates to somewhere near 1%?

 

None of us are experts, but as mentioned above, the scientists that are experts generally recommend using masks indoors and do so themselves. 

[NJH]

8 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

I agree about experts Peony but they can't seem to agree amongst themselves.  

 

Dr Chris Smith and Professor Linda Bauld, who are usually on BBC Breakfast on Saturday mornings both seem to speak sensibly and they both said they are still wearing masks in crowded indoor places.

indeed the only  indoor 'public' places  i'm not wearing a face covering at present  are
the ballet studio 
 at work within a certain  parameters  - bascially parts of the site are laid out now in such a way that if you are a workbench  you  don't need to be wearing a mask 

[Peony]

6 hours ago, DanJL said:

Well the current best estimate is that 1 in 90 people in England are infected. Remembering that a third of those show no symptoms and a decent amount more will be in the early stages before symptoms appear. The vaccine cuts transition but only by a small amount. Then thinking about how many people at a packed venue will be sat within 2 metres of you, plus people you might encounter in the intervals etc. surely equates to somewhere near 1%?

 

None of us are experts, but as mentioned above, the scientists that are experts generally recommend using masks indoors and do so themselves. 

 1 in 90 is the ONS estimate it’s not the actual testing figure which is lower. It includes those in early stages. And 2-15 year olds are the group most affected by about 2.5 x and they’re not that numerous at most general performances. Covid is rife amongst children how are almost all

unvaccinated which skews the figures enormously. Over 93% of adults have antibodies to covid. Indicators are that the vaccine is still over 60% effective against delta.  The R number is below 1. Infection rate is dropping in all age groups apart from kids
 

As Jan says above the experts don’t always agree. The truth is that nobody knows as it’s not straightforward and there’s a lack of information. You can see that in the widely inaccurate scientific modelling. I’m perfectly happy to go along with Chris Whitby’s advice myself as I find it pretty measured and sensible. However, I do dislike the way we’re all encouraged to judge others when they’re acting in a perfectly lawful manner. 
 

[DanJL]

1 hour ago, Peony said:

1 in 90 is the ONS estimate it’s not the actual testing figure which is lower

The ONS estimate is by definition the best estimate we have. It's the only large random sample of all people in England, regardless of symptoms. Testing figures are just that - people who happen to have had a test, which masks non symptomatic people and those who have decided not to get tested. Those in early stages are still infectious after all. The figures you quote on ages are presumably from testing, which could also be an indication of the fact that much more routine testing happens for school age children. And sadly immunity, whether from vaccine or previous infection does not prevent us from being infectious. One only has to look at the number of people we know who are still being infected to realise that the chances are far from negligible. I hope that infections continue to drop, but experts seem to think it will still be a fairly difficult winter with the real relief not coming until spring. Hopefully they're wrong and I'm being overly cautious. But given the vast scale of the pandemic and its ability to keep coming back I think caution isn't such a bad thing. 

 

I would add that the only judgement I might pass is on those who remove the rules on a simple measure like mask wearing too early. I live in Wales, where it's still legally required in a number of settings (shops and public transport, I'm not sure about theatres as they've only just reopened). Personally I feel much more comfortable with this approach. And to bring the conversation back, I am currently in a very mixed mind about the wisdom of traveling to the Royal Opera House for all the ballets I've booked due to the policy there. 

[JohnS]

4 hours ago, DanJL said:

And to bring the conversation back, I am currently in a very mixed mind about the wisdom of traveling to the Royal Opera House for all the ballets I've booked due to the policy there. 

I’m not sure if Dan is referring to the policy operated by the ROH or the train company or the Government or all three. But I think it would be very difficult for the ROH to do any more given the absence of any requirement to wear masks indoors in public places in England. If the Government ends up implementing its ‘Plan B’ at some point in the Autumn/Winter, then things would be very different. The contrasts with Wales and Scotland are again telling.
I too do wonder about my future trips already booked but think I’m likely to go ahead. However, I may be more cautious about Swan Lake bookings. 

[Lizbie1]

4 hours ago, DanJL said:

The figures you quote on ages are presumably from testing, which could also be an indication of the fact that much more routine testing happens for school age children.

 

I imagine Peony is using the ONS sample for these as well as well:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19/latestinsights

 

I think we could argue with points in each other's posts for a long time, but I don't think any minds are being changed here and everyone will have their own comfort level. Like Peony, though, I would like to see less "othering" of people not wearing masks, especially when we're talking about a very large section of the audience (probably a larger one than would own up to it).

[LinMM]

This whole area is very difficult at this precise moment in time for me. 
The main reason for this is that I’m really disappointed that the vaccination process has not really given us back the true freedom we had hoped way back in January. 
We knew the vaccination wasn’t going to be a 100 per cent protection for everybody but in the last month I seem to know more people who have been double vaccinated and still got Covid across all age groups from 18 to 60 plus. 
Admittedly all have now recovered without going into hospital but a couple had to have time off work after the isolation period because they were still ill. 
This is not so good news for even older people like myself (just coming up to 74) 

So rather than hitting this Autumn thinking might be able to throw caution to the winds I find I’m still worrying about Covid far more than I wanted to.

Most of the tickets I booked for the Autumn were booked before all these “breakthrough infections” were becoming so large. 
So I do feel a bit like Dan now ....is it wise to be heading into the ROH in the few months ahead....though I don’t want to feel like this. 
I probably will attend the performances I’ve already booked and am lucky I can arrange travel times so the trains etc are not so busy etc but am now waiting to see what happens before thinking about booking the Swan Lakes. 
Of course people may say well don’t go to the theatre then if you feel so at risk and in a sense this is true. 
But can the theatres do a little more to contribute to people feeling safer. For example is it really too much to ask people not to take drinks into the auditorium until the worst of Covid is past? 

I take the risk of attending various classes but don’t feel as much at risk in them because of measures which are still in place restricting numbers to the space and really good ventilation in place plus I’m not in such close proximity to others for such a long period of time as you are in a theatre. 
Professor Sarah Gilbert who was instrumental in contributing to the success of the AstraZeneca vaccine has said very recently that she herself thinks Covid will eventually decline to be a non serious infection like a bad cold for the vast majority of people but we haven’t quite reached that point yet unfortunately although we’d all like to hurry it up!! 
I think it’s right to be a little more cautious about Covid just at this point in time. 
 

 

[zxDaveM]

as I understand it, the main benefit of the vaccine is that it stops you getting really ill (and so need the hospital). It doesn't stop you 'catching' it and so spreading it. It does reduce your viral load when infected, as you don't become that ill and cough and splutter so much (and so don't make so many virally loaded droplets that spread the disease), and so reduces the amount you can spread. There are always those 'heroes' who insist on going in to work when they are unwell, and so spread the joy (whether it be covid, flu, or just a bad cold). Vaccinations, and mask wearing indoors, help reduce the infection rate. If the infection rate stays high, there is more of a chance the virus mutates and creates itself a more infectious variant, where we'd end up back at square one if that variant resistant to the current vaccines.

My current worry is that it seems the overall uptake of the vaccines has stalled somewhat. I live on the border of two London boroughs - one has a vaccination rate (for over 16's) of 80% / 74% for first and both doses respectively, but the other (where my supermarket is) has only 68% / 61% and seems stuck on those figures

[Peony]

@LinMM whilst it’s not a guarantee have you thought about getting some respirator masks? The price has come right down and  it is an extra layer of protection. Booster jabs are also available on the national booking site if it’s more than 6 months since your primary course. 
I’d make sure you get a flu vaccine ASAP this year too

[Peony]

News article today saying that covid

passports will be mandatory for some venues. Who knows though as it seems to change daily! Probably won’t be popular with some but as a temporary measure I don’t have a problem with it personally.

[Anon2]

On 27/09/2021 at 10:59, Peony said:

@LinMM whilst it’s not a guarantee have you thought about getting some respirator masks? The price has come right down and  it is an extra layer of protection. Booster jabs are also available on the national booking site if it’s more than 6 months since your primary course. 
I’d make sure you get a flu vaccine ASAP this year too

I think you need to wait for a notification for your booster. I had mine this morning and a number of people were asking and told needed to wait for NHS to contact them. 

[LinMM]

I think here in U.K. they are saying you are eligible after six months but in the US it’s after 8 months. 
Ive read that the AstraZeneca lasts a little longer than Pfizer so 8 months should be fine for me I think so some time after my birthday but before Christmas!! So all boostered up ready for Swan Lake lol!! 
I wonder why they are only using Pfizer for boosters though when the recent research shows that a mixture of the two vaccines gives better all round protection because they act in slightly different ways. I didn’t think there was a problem with AstraZeneca with people over 30 and anyway Pfizer has also not been without it’s own problems. 
There definitely seems to be an unnecessary “downer” on AstraZeneca. 

 

[Peony]

If it’s past 6 months from your second jab the National portal should let you book. You can’t get on until it’s at least 6 months though. The 3rd dose for immunosupressed you have to wait for a notification which is confusing things a bit I think.

AZ might last a bit longer but the effectiveness is lower to start with hence booster for all at 6 months (if you choose to)

[Anon2]

Wait to be contacted

If you are not a frontline health or social care worker, please wait to be contacted by the NHS before booking your booster dose.

You may be contacted and asked to book online or at a local NHS service such as a GP surgery. 
 

From the booking site - don’t know why I can’t post the link 

 

[Peony]

Sorry must have misunderstood the instructions, don’t listen to me!

[Anna C]

3 hours ago, LinMM said:

I think here in U.K. they are saying you are eligible after six months but in the US it’s after 8 months. 
Ive read that the AstraZeneca lasts a little longer than Pfizer so 8 months should be fine for me I think so some time after my birthday but before Christmas!! So all boostered up ready for Swan Lake lol!! 
I wonder why they are only using Pfizer for boosters though when the recent research shows that a mixture of the two vaccines gives better all round protection because they act in slightly different ways. I didn’t think there was a problem with AstraZeneca with people over 30 and anyway Pfizer has also not been without it’s own problems. 
There definitely seems to be an unnecessary “downer” on AstraZeneca. 

 

 

Having had extremely bad side effects from my second AZ jab (so severe that I had to report them using the MHRA Yellow Card scheme), I’d be loathe to have a third dose of it as a booster, so personally I’m very glad the NHS is using the Pfizer Biontech jab as the booster.  

[Lizbie1]

35 minutes ago, Anna C said:

 

Having had extremely bad side effects from my second AZ jab (so severe that I had to report them using the MHRA Yellow Card scheme), I’d be loathe to have a third dose of it as a booster, so personally I’m very glad the NHS is using the Pfizer Biontech jab as the booster.  

 

Speaking from experience - don't count on Pfizer being a walk in the park 🙁

[Anna C]

34 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

Speaking from experience - don't count on Pfizer being a walk in the park 🙁

 

No, I won’t 😕.  I can only hope that because the two vaccines work slightly differently, the side effects might be less severe. 🤞🏻