Sim Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 I have been thinking about this (not for the first time!) since the awards nominations were announced a couple of days ago. I was particularly interested to see the nominations for Outstanding Female Classical Performance, wherein The Cellist and Five Brahms Waltzes were in the same category as Giselle and Sleeping Beauty. Stylistically, I would never put them together. Of course, classical ballet is the rock around which the rest of it revolves, but would you consider The Cellist and Brahms as classical ballet? What is the criteria? Perhaps some of you folks who are much more knowledgeable than I am regarding technique can explain the differences to me...over to you! OUTSTANDING FEMALE CLASSICAL PERFORMANCE Begoña Cao in Five Brahms Waltzes in the Manner of Isadora Duncan (Viviana Durante Company) Lauren Cuthbertson in The Cellist (The Royal Ballet) Momoko Hirata in the title role as Giselle (Birmingham Royal Ballet) Fumi Kaneko as Aurora in The Sleeping Beauty (The Royal Ballet) Beatriz Stix-Brunel in The Cellist (The Royal Ballet) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 Well that is an interesting topic Sim! I'm sure that there are people far more qualified than me to comment but there are now so many styles of ballet should they all be sub-divided into different categories or kept more generically together. I think perhaps what binds them all together is pointe shoes (although not all classical ballets require the use of pointe shoes). I would class Giselle as romantic ballet and Sleeping Beauty as classical ballet. I would put, for example, Bournonville in the romantic ballet category but where should Ashton sit? Where should Macmillan sit? I think I would be inclined to think of Balanchine as Neo-classical. Is Wayne MacGregor. Do we need a separate category for those who work in a similar area to Cathy Marston? Where would David Nixon fit in? Sorry Sim, more questions than answers. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 Sim: i'd had a somewhat similar reaction. But we have similar issues with 'classical music' where the term can be held to include everything from work by Monteverdi (or earlier) to John Adams. Woops! Janet has just expanded into further questions - I'll be interested to see how this develops. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 Surely whatever The Cellist is (modern ballet, modern dance?) it isn't classical ballet! I was surprised to see it included in that category. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 One of the distinctions I often look for in this context is the general use of turnout. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 3 hours ago, Jan McNulty said: I would class Giselle as romantic ballet and Sleeping Beauty as classical ballet. In terms of dance history, this is correct. Strictly the adjective "classical" refers to a particular time period - generally the latter part of the 19thC. I'm far less bothered though by the kinds of distinctions others are making here: I think that, for example, Forsythe's work, MaGregor's work, and Marston's, all use the vocabulary of ballet, but in contemporary ways. My favourite Australian choreographer, Graeme Murphy, was even more extreme in his pushing of the ballet vocabulary & repertoire, but the dancers were all fully trained 'classical' ballet dancers. Whereas, dancers trained solely in contemporary technique (eg Graham or Cunningham) have a very different look, style, and even shape of the body. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 Does the Company a work is made for/performed by come into play here at all? One of the differences I note between 'classical' and 'neo-classical' is that the former is very 'pulled up' whereas the latter can take the dancers' bodies 'everywhere'. Maybe the Critics' Circle can enlighten us on the questions posed above? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 I tend to agree with Kate_N here. Do you need classical training in order to dance the role? In that case I think it does belong in the Classical category even if the choreography takes the strict Classical vocabulary in new directions with new challenges. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJH Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 As has all ready been pointed out 'Classical' is a much mis-used term in the music world and increasingly it seems in dance ... I do think the references to pointe work, turnout and 'classical ballet technique' are very pertinent to this topic, my knowledge is limited compared to some here, but the one ballet piece i have performed despite the overall choroegraphy and the choice of music made defintie use of 'classicla ballet technique' where contemporary pieces i;ve been in have consciously avoided balletic stuff unless making a point 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 3 hours ago, Kate_N said: In terms of dance history, this is correct. Strictly the adjective "classical" refers to a particular time period - generally the latter part of the 19thC. I'm far less bothered though by the kinds of distinctions others are making here: I think that, for example, Forsythe's work, MaGregor's work, and Marston's, all use the vocabulary of ballet, but in contemporary ways. My favourite Australian choreographer, Graeme Murphy, was even more extreme in his pushing of the ballet vocabulary & repertoire, but the dancers were all fully trained 'classical' ballet dancers. Whereas, dancers trained solely in contemporary technique (eg Graham or Cunningham) have a very different look, style, and even shape of the body. Yes, I agree. Perhaps the awards need an additional category of “Contemporary Ballet”? Not just for Marston, McGregor et al; I’d even put Akram Khan’s Giselle in that category. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said: even if the choreography takes the strict Classical vocabulary in new directions with new challenges. And let's remember! Petipa took Romantic choreography and developed it into classical era ballet. As did Nijinska. Or we could go backwards and look at what M. Vestris did to develop the repertoire of steps choreography in the romantic ballet - or Bournonville. And so on. Things change & develop. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 9 hours ago, Sim said: I have been thinking about this (not for the first time!) since the awards nominations were announced a couple of days ago. I was particularly interested to see the nominations for Outstanding Female Classical Performance, wherein The Cellist and Five Brahms Waltzes were in the same category as Giselle and Sleeping Beauty. Stylistically, I would never put them together. Of course, classical ballet is the rock around which the rest of it revolves, but would you consider The Cellist and Brahms as classical ballet? What is the criteria? Perhaps some of you folks who are much more knowledgeable than I am regarding technique can explain the differences to me...over to you! OUTSTANDING FEMALE CLASSICAL PERFORMANCE Begoña Cao in Five Brahms Waltzes in the Manner of Isadora Duncan (Viviana Durante Company) Lauren Cuthbertson in The Cellist (The Royal Ballet) Momoko Hirata in the title role as Giselle (Birmingham Royal Ballet) Fumi Kaneko as Aurora in The Sleeping Beauty (The Royal Ballet) Beatriz Stix-Brunel in The Cellist (The Royal Ballet) Cf. also: OUTSTANDING MALE CLASSICAL PERFORMANCE Matthew Ball as Lensky in Onegin (The Royal Ballet) William Bracewell in Dances at a Gathering (The Royal Ballet) Jeffrey Cirio as Conrad in Le Corsaire (English National Ballet) César Morales as Albrecht in Giselle (Birmingham Royal Ballet) Marcelino Sambé as the Instrument in The Cellist (The Royal Ballet) Perhaps asking the question of what the difference is between "classical" and "modern" might help, too? I mean, everything thus far - and below - rather seems to suggest that "classical" = "ballet" (performed by a "ballet" company) and "modern" = non-ballet, regardless of the work, or possibly just a general catch-all? Can it really be that clear-cut in this day and age? Or is it just a matter of convenience? I've seen very little of the "modern" performances listed, so it's difficult for me to comment further. BEST CLASSICAL CHOREOGRAPHY (sponsored by The Ballet Association) Cathy Marston for The Cellist (The Royal Ballet) Kenneth Tindall for Geisha (Northern Ballet) Kenneth Tindall for The Shape of Sound (Northern Ballet) Will Tuckett for Lazuli Sky (Birmingham Royal Ballet) Valentino Zucchetti for Scherzo (The Royal Ballet) BEST MODERN CHOREOGRAPHY Michael Keegan-Dolan for MÁM (Teać Damsa) Dada Masilo for Giselle (Dada Masilo) Crystal Pite & Jonathon Young for Revisor (Kidd Pivot) Luca Silvestrini for The Little Prince (Luca Silvestrini’s Protein) Gisèle Vienne for Crowd (Gisèle Vienne/Dance Umbrella) OUTSTANDING FEMALE MODERN PERFORMANCE Jemima Brown in Step Sonic (Tom Dale Company) Oona Doherty in Hope Hunt (and the ascension into Lazarus) (Oona Doherty/Dance Umbrella) Dana Fouras in MaliphantWorks3 (Russell Maliphant Dance Company) Rachel Poirier in MÁM (Teać Damsa) OUTSTANDING MALE MODERN PERFORMANCE Dane Hurst in Staging Schiele (Shobana Jeyasingh Dance) Llewellyn Mnguni as Myrtha in Giselle (Dada Masilo) Guillaume Quéau in Draw From Within (Rambert) Kenrick H20 Sandy in REDD (Boy Blue Entertainment) Jermaine Spivey in Revisor (Kidd Pivot) It's perhaps also worth noting that the term "classical ballet" isn't actually used anywhere in the NDA press release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 5 hours ago, bangorballetboy said: One of the distinctions I often look for in this context is the general use of turnout. Yes, I think that may well be a more important distinction than the presence of pointe shoes. After all, you could nominate an all-male piece, with none of them wearing pointe shoes. 5 hours ago, Kate_N said: Whereas, dancers trained solely in contemporary technique (eg Graham or Cunningham) have a very different look, style, and even shape of the body. So what if you're trained in both? I think Rambert, at least, usually takes ballet-trained dancers - and until recently, at least (I'm not sure of the situation with the new AD), they used to start the day with a ballet class, I seem to recall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted May 9, 2021 Share Posted May 9, 2021 no rolling around on the floor (generally speaking - mad scenes excepted) 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 9 hours ago, zxDaveM said: mad scenes excepted) Whew! So we can keep Giselle, then? 😉 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LACAD Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 I think the distinction is used because ballet (in all forms) derives from one of Europe’s biggest and oldest codified dance traditions. So even if it’s neoclassical, contemporary, or romantic, it’s all derived from the classical school. And while of course ‘classical’ technically refers to a period, ballet as a dance form is classical in the sense that it is old. It’s pejorative, but it makes sense (at least in my eyes). I do wonder if dancers in other classical forms would be seen as classical too? I wonder has Khan or Jeyasingh in her more Bharatanatyam derived works been categorised as ‘classical’? And if dancers in other ‘old’ forms of dance (Irish, flamenco, Balinese etc.) have been a part of the category? Perhaps I’m overthinking! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 5 hours ago, LACAD said: I think the distinction is used because ballet (in all forms) derives from one of Europe’s biggest and oldest codified dance traditions. So even if it’s neoclassical, contemporary, or romantic, it’s all derived from the classical school. And while of course ‘classical’ technically refers to a period, ballet as a dance form is classical in the sense that it is old. It’s pejorative, but it makes sense (at least in my eyes). I'm sure you're right about the distinction, though sometimes it seems to me that the principles of the classical school are in fact distorted in some contemporary work. (I see that the Encyclopedia Britannica defines classical ballet as 'a system of dance based on formalized movements and positions of the arms, feet and body designed to enable the dancer to move with the greatest possible agility, control, speed, lightness and grace'. It's the last word that's crucial, I think.) But when you say 'It's pejorative', do you mean the word 'classical' or 'old'? I wouldn't consider either pejorative myself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 38 minutes ago, bridiem said: though sometimes it seems to me that the principles of the classical school are in fact distorted in some contemporary work. but I wonder if the choreographers of the 1830s (height of Romantic ballet) would have said that about the choreography, style, and technique of the 1890s? I suspect they would. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 11 minutes ago, Kate_N said: but I wonder if the choreographers of the 1830s (height of Romantic ballet) would have said that about the choreography, style, and technique of the 1890s? I suspect they would. Maybe so, but I think there's a difference between development and distortion. Though the judgement as to which is involved will vary! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaM Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 On 09/05/2021 at 22:45, alison said: Cf. also: OUTSTANDING MALE CLASSICAL PERFORMANCE Matthew Ball as Lensky in Onegin (The Royal Ballet) William Bracewell in Dances at a Gathering (The Royal Ballet) Jeffrey Cirio as Conrad in Le Corsaire (English National Ballet) César Morales as Albrecht in Giselle (Birmingham Royal Ballet) Marcelino Sambé as the Instrument in The Cellist (The Royal Ballet) It does seem odd to me that The Cellist has been included with these other performances? I feel it is very much modern in the movements used ... some are balletic, some are not ... though of course the female dancers ARE in pointe shoes. I’d put Akram Khan’s Giselle, Dust and many Wayne McGregor ballets in this category. Whereas (for example) most Christopher Wheeldon, Liam Scarlett, Valentino Zucchetti pieces in the classical ballet category ... whether narrative or not. I agree with @capybara that it would be good to get the Critics Circle to explain their thinking. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 (edited) Been a long time since I have taken any ballet exams, but surely there are quite strict rules when it comes to what is described as classical ballet technique? Hence the Encyclopaedia Britannica definition. It doesn't matter whether it is the Sleeping Beauty or Giselle, the movements themselves follow the same principles. I don't think the classical ballet curriculum has altered that much over the last 100 years, has it? It might go back a lot further, I don't know. However, the greats of old, such as Margot Fonteyn, would immediately be familiar with classwork being taught today if they suddenly reappeared on earth. Companies are still dancing ballets choreographed for her, after all (and struggling with it in many cases.) I would put Ashton firmly in the classical ballet category for that reason. Likewise MacMillan. Some of his pas de deux work might raise an eyebrow amongst the purists, perhaps? But he could and did choreograph ballets based on pure classical ballet techniques. I am not that familiar with Balanchine, but the stuff I have seen such as Jewels look to be firmly based on the types of movements practised every day in class. On the other hand, Wayne Macgregor's stuff, certainly doesn't follow those rules. Nor would he describe himself as a classical ballet choreographer, would he? So I would say modern dance, modern ballet, contemporary ballet or whatever you like to call it, doesn't demand the same strict positioning of the body, the limbs and the feet as classical ballet. I would also say that the type of music used adds to the definition of what is and isn't classical ballet. Try doing any ballet movements to pop records, for example. Nothing to do with the actual music itself. I am sure someone could choreograph a wonderful classical ballet pas de deux to something like Bridge over Troubled Water. But for so much stuff, it just isn't possible to perform the steps correctly in time with the music. Having said that, I have suddenly got an image of a ballerina doing fouettes to this. Bit slow perhaps? Maybe Italian fouettes? Edited May 13, 2021 by Fonty 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Sorry that came out so huge. I tried to edit but it wouldn't allow me to put in the link without the picture. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 William Tuckett choreographed License my roving hands for BRB in the early 1990s to the music of Jimi Hendrix. My recollection of it is thinking "Pan's People en pointe" and also that I could have made a better choice of Hendrix music to use! I don't think I will ever forget that Miyako Yoshida appeared in this. I can't remember who else performed in it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said: I don't think I will ever forget that Miyako Yoshida appeared in this. !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 36 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said: !!! Exactly. IIRC the ladies' dresses were black shiny skintight mini-dresses and they had blonde bob wigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irmgard Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 I asked Deborah Weiss, who is a member of the Critics’ Circle, how they categorise classical and modern performances. She explained that nominations for best classical performance can include anything based on what is regarded as a classical dance technique, such as kathak, flamenco (which apparently has been included in past nominations), escuela bolera etc., as well as ballet. Best modern performance relates to those based on modern dance techniques, i.e. from Graham/Central European onwards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Irmgard said: I asked Deborah Weiss, who is a member of the Critics’ Circle, how they categorise classical and modern performances. She explained that nominations for best classical performance can include anything based on what is regarded as a classical dance technique, such as kathak, flamenco (which apparently has been included in past nominations), escuela bolera etc., as well as ballet. Best modern performance relates to those based on modern dance techniques, i.e. from Graham/Central European onwards. Still don't see how The Cellist is "classical" under these criteria.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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