Fonty Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 13 minutes ago, Jane S said: NOTHING would have made me watch Master and Commander - I know what Jack Aubrey looked like and it wasn't Russell Crowe! Then you missed a real treat, Jane. I felt the same way when I heard that Sean Bean had been cast as Sharpe in the tv series. Having read the books, I was dead against him. However, I changed my mind when I saw the first one. Yes, he is very different, but I loved the whole series. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanJL Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 32 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said: Thanks for that DanJ. I intend to see it over Christmas. Could you fathom why it’s getting such a horrid press - in some media it’s almost becoming an act of faith to ridicule it? My own take is that Cats is just a very different type of film to others in the current mainstream. A lot of the ridicule I've read seems based on the appearance of the cats being somehow fetishistic. I'm sure nothing was further from the mind of the people designing them and certainly didn't seem apparent to my eyes. I found much of it lovely and viewed it almost as good, old fashioned entertainment, rather than a film with any deep insight. Maybe that makes it a little innocent for some reviewers? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 14 hours ago, penelopesimpson said: Wow. What a pity the great unwashed don’t appreciate that his work is musically banal, a fact which you state with such certainty it simply must be true. Or maybe they do and they just don’t care, them preferring to enjoy themselves on an evening out watching a dramatic storyline unfold through catchy tunes and enjoyable music, there being no Tippett or Stockhausen on at their local Dog and Duck. You’ll be telling me they read the Daily Mail next. Here are some examples of composers of “dramatic storylines” that “unfold through catchy tunes” which my ears tell me are vastly superior to ALW’s derivative and simplistic efforts. Hope helpful: Irving Berlin Cole Porter Ivor Novello Leonard Bernstein Noel Coward Jerome Kern George Gershwin Marvin Hamlisch Kander and Ebb Frank Loesser Lionel Bart Stephen Sondheim Lin Manuel Miranda 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Lindsay - I don't disagree with the names on your list, but only two are still alive as far as I know and of those I'd question Sondheim's credentials as a writer of "catchy tunes": the man on the street could very likely only name Send in the Clowns. (Full disclosure: I see very little Musical Theatre and enjoy less for two reasons: I don't like modern musicals and I don't like the way the performance style has evolved in the wake of amplification.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Luckily for composers, death is no barrier to their works being performed 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Fred Ebb is not really known for his tunes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 True, but it felt unfair to mention Kander without him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Oh my goodness, I have watched this series over and over again. Paul McGann was unlucky because it made Sean's name. I am guessing you also love Band of Brothers? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Well, that is indeed a lovely and distinguished list, Lindsay, but your post is somewhat disingenuous as it seems to be answering a statement I never made. Your point was that 'those engaged in higher level music education know that ALW's work is musically banal with a generous topping of ersatz emotional manipulation. ' That's a pretty bald statement on a message board devoted to opinions which are necessarily subjective. I particularly dislike that you seek to employ a higher authority to make your point that those who really understand these things consider ALW rubbish, ergo, those who like his musical theatre must be, well, how would you express it? Shall we go with Daily Mail readers, perhaps? I don't recall anywhere saying that Andrew Lloyd-Webber's work is superior. It is of a type, as is the work created by many of the people on your list. The one is not necessarily better or more worthy than the other. Pertinently, as you must have understood, he is contemporary and therefore somewhat more available. To use the raison d'etre behind Open-Up, surely our goal should be to encourage people to experience a wide variety of artistic endeavours and then make up their own minds as to whether it floats their boat? Pigeon-holing and then shaming them for their taste is hardly likely to enthuse them. For my own part I've never given a damn when people tell me I should/should not like something because they say so. In closing let me use a Ballet analogy. Quite the worst thing I ever saw at ROH was Twyla Tharp's one-act concoction two or three years ago. It was so bad it made me squirm, the more so because it was ring-fenced with pretentious description that had lead me to anticipate the second coming. But here's the point - there were very many people in the audience who engaged with it and loved every minute. It was not the ballet that was wrong, it was me because it wasn't to my taste. Lets celebrate diversity (can't believe I just said that) and allow people to find what moves them rather than fat-shame them. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 2 hours ago, penelopesimpson said: Well, that is indeed a lovely and distinguished list, Lindsay, but your post is somewhat disingenuous as it seems to be answering a statement I never made. Your point was that 'those engaged in higher level music education know that ALW's work is musically banal with a generous topping of ersatz emotional manipulation. ' That's a pretty bald statement on a message board devoted to opinions which are necessarily subjective. I particularly dislike that you seek to employ a higher authority to make your point that those who really understand these things consider ALW rubbish, ergo, those who like his musical theatre must be, well, how would you express it? Shall we go with Daily Mail readers, perhaps? I don't recall anywhere saying that Andrew Lloyd-Webber's work is superior. It is of a type, as is the work created by many of the people on your list. The one is not necessarily better or more worthy than the other. Pertinently, as you must have understood, he is contemporary and therefore somewhat more available. To use the raison d'etre behind Open-Up, surely our goal should be to encourage people to experience a wide variety of artistic endeavours and then make up their own minds as to whether it floats their boat? Pigeon-holing and then shaming them for their taste is hardly likely to enthuse them. For my own part I've never given a damn when people tell me I should/should not like something because they say so. In closing let me use a Ballet analogy. Quite the worst thing I ever saw at ROH was Twyla Tharp's one-act concoction two or three years ago. It was so bad it made me squirm, the more so because it was ring-fenced with pretentious description that had lead me to anticipate the second coming. But here's the point - there were very many people in the audience who engaged with it and loved every minute. It was not the ballet that was wrong, it was me because it wasn't to my taste. Lets celebrate diversity (can't believe I just said that) and allow people to find what moves them rather than fat-shame them. I was not being in the least disingenuous and am a little confused as to where your accusation of ‘fat-shaming’ came from. I was responding to the binary that you set up in your previous post between musical theatre and Tippett/Stockhausen by giving examples of the musical theatre which is musically complex and sophisticated. And as for the charge of resorting to “a higher authority” (by which I assume you mean expertise) I live with someone who works in tertiary music education and know scores of others but in fact it doesn’t take more than my basic training in theory and harmony to see that ALW’s music is harmonically basic and far more simplistic and less interesting than the work of the others I listed. It is a free country in which you are entitled to choose to spend your money on ALW’s work. But others are also free to express objective opinions about his music. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Well, Lindsay, we can certainly agree about all being free to express their cultural taste and to call it as they see it. I obviously wasn't clear that what I objected to was your stating your view as fact. What you feel and what I feel are surely both valid but neither are fact. Can't really be more plain than quoting from your own post: 'those engaged in higher level music education know that ALW's work is musically banal with a generous topping of ersatz emotional manipulation. ' Shall we leave it there? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shya100 Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 I think this was never a good weekend to release it. People being busy finialising Christmas etc. The weekend between Christmas and New Year would be the best I think. That post 26th time when a lot of people are still off so we will see ho it does then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAX Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/dec/21/cats-review-tom-hooper-taylor-swift-judi-dench-idris-elba-jennifer-hudson-ian-mckellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Todays' papers are speaking of cinemas having been told to expect a revised version of the film shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob S Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/dec/23/cats-film-resupplied-improved-visuals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 21 hours ago, penelopesimpson said: Oh my goodness, I have watched this series over and over again. Paul McGann was unlucky because it made Sean's name. I am guessing you also love Band of Brothers? I think you and I seem to have very similar tastes, Penelope. Paul McGann was very unlucky, especially as he does fit the description of the character in the book. But Sean was terrific in it. I read somewhere that an interviewer asked him if he would be changing his accent because the character didn't speak with a northern one. Sean's reply? "Well, he does now." However, I must confess I never saw Band of Brothers. It was on while I was working abroad, so I missed it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryrosesatonapin Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Just for fun, see this: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 On 21/12/2019 at 11:44, Lindsay said: I think those engaged in higher level music education know that ALW's work is musically banal with a generous topping of ersatz emotional manipulation. Well perhaps they do think that, but it would be terribly bad manners to say so, thereby insulting those who happen to like it (and all those thousands of professionally-trained musicians, dancers and vocalists who have made a living from it over the years). With all due respect, we don't all like the 'poncy' stuff. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 In all the arts there seems to be a given that if it is popular it must be low brow. Only the conoscenti appreciate true art. Quite how this equates with opening access to everyone is a conundrum. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 My husband is a classically-trained professional musician and instrument teacher. He also plays in a rock band in pubs, and their keyboard player trained at the Royal College of Music. Go figure. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said: In all the arts there seems to be a given that if it is popular it must be low brow. Only the conoscenti appreciate true art. Quite how this equates with opening access to everyone is a conundrum. I half agree - but when I was actively involved in music a long time ago there was definitely an understanding of "good bad taste" (i.e. an appreciation of pieces which might be cheesy or derivative but most owned up to loving in practice). There exists also "bad good taste", i.e. the things you should admire in theory but don't exactly look forward to hearing or performing. Then there is the "this is a terrific piece but it really needs to be given a rest" category. ALW isn't my bag but - and this is separate to the charges of being derivative and banal - he does know his stuff and there's a lot of craft in there, IMO. (For example, unlike many of the other composers cited in this thread, I believe he orchestrates his own music.) Ultimately though, time is a good filter: If in 50 years' time his musicals are still putting bums on seats professionals will probably take a more generous view. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Lizbie1 said: Ultimately though, time is a good filter: If in 50 years' time his musicals are still putting bums on seats professionals will probably take a more generous view. It’s more than 50 years since the first Joseph (albeit that original was a 15 minute concept piece) and tickets for the last revival at the Palladium in 2019 were like gold dust. Phantom (1986) is the longest running show in Broadway history (by some way) and is still putting bums on seats both there and in the west end. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Love Phantom...took my mum just after she was diagnosed with Cancer and she had never been to a West End musical before and absolutely loved it! She had such a great time so have always had bit of a soft spot for ALW ever since. I heard some good things about him on the radio 4 today too as he funds some schools in this music scheme so the kids can all learn a musical instrument and the schools in the scheme are reporting a massive improvement in general behaviour and other academic achievements as well ...will post a link if can find the news article 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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