Going Back to ballet continued...

[Moomin]

My heels don't touch in 1st position as I have hypermobility and big calves, tbh even as a skinny youngster I don't think they quite touched and this was always thought to be acceptable by teachers so perhaps it's for similar reasons that you have observed it Michelle? I'm sure it is not the ideal.

Sounds like a good book Lin, I can't say I've ever been taught much about muscle use.

[LinMM]

It's not wrong to brush the heels (I say this because you said Michelle"I must confess that......" But it's just a light touch!

In a ronde de jambe a terre the foot comes through first position flat.....almost as if you are briefly going to stop in first position but you don't of course.

I can imagine with some leg shapes this could be difficult if doing at some speed.....hence the gap spoken of by Moomin. I don't know whether you mean by hyper mobility that you have "sway back" legs Moomin as this could present problems. But there are advantages to this as well!! The leg always looks straighter and more extended in arabesque

 

Just going back to Michelle something you said about plié in fourth position.

When I was doing the RAD syllabus as a child and later when I was doing ballet again in my twenties and thirties I seem to remember we always did plies in BOTH the fourth positions.....4th opposite 1st (open 4th) and 4th opposite 5th (crossed 4th).....as part of the barre work however since Ive come back this time in the last two and a half years I have not been in a class or observed a class where there have been any plies in the open 4th position opposite first. Plies always seem to be done from the more crossed 4th position opposite 5th where the heels leave the floor. I don't know why open 4th seems to have disappeared for plies but it does seem to have.

 

I think plié in crossed 4th....opposite 5th...is the most difficult one to do as far as turn out and weight distribution between the legs is concerned......and in my opinion is not that suitable for complete adult beginners to be doing. Interestingly enough the plié in the more open 4th is easier and the heels stay on the floor as for second position. This is also useful for pirouettes....especially for boys/men....who tend to do pirouettes off a slightly bigger and more open 4th. So why they are no longer part of the barre am not sure.

 

So Michelle all the above really just to say that you will find that most times that pliés in 4th will be the one with the heels leaving the floor!!

I got the book by the way from Amazon.

[Fiz]

It's on my massive wish list, Lin 8)

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

As for the 4th position in Plié's, Nicky in my local class does not do them at all, possibly as the majority of her dancers are at the older end of the spectrum, I have a couple of others that do not do 4th either, I don't think ENB did at level 1. I have at least 1 that does it in 4th open, the rest are crossed, but no of them do both. When my self help group with two other girls, when we were up and running we did both, but sadly on girl hurt her back and no longer goes to ballet and very rarely salsa, the other is looking after her grandson, but I do see her occasionally at Body balance, and she was very keen.

 

Ok about the long 4th position for men and boys, most of my classes use longish 4th position for this too. Both my Grantham class and ENB use a very long forth position for some of the Port de Bras exercises with the back leg almost touching the floor, but you still have to have your foot turned out and fully placed on the floor.

 

Ah well taxis will soon be here (11am Sunday) and then its off to LAB SI

Edited July 28, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[LinMM]

I was just referring to the 4th used to do pirouettes!! If you are talking about the back leg nearly touching the floor that sounds more like a stretching position in a semi lunge position which may be used for port des bras in centre work and yes the back leg would have to maintain turnout which may mean for some.....including myself.....perhaps not going so low so my back leg is usually not that near the floor!!!

Have a great time at LAB hopefully we will hear about it on that thread or it could be this one as well I suppose.

The Roger Tully book is not just about use of muscles and he doesn't go into names of muscles etc.....not that sort of a book....but he does give some interesting ideas on distribution of weight, orientation of the body in space and the dynamics of certain movements. I may be a bit biassed as he is an old teacher of mine and seemed to have a relationship with a certain almost "spiritual" side to ballet which was unusual then and just about unheard of today!! (I hasten to add I have no religion) But understand there is a dimension beyond the personal which some can connect to and this may help some in their dancing....with me more likely to be via the music.

 

Balletteacher I do agree very much with your post of 26th July(the last one) but I also agree with Michelle that there is not that much direct advice on correct use of muscles.......though this is more likely if you can find a class as an adult which is a properly graded class such as RAD or BBO and so on.....though not always even in these classes. And almost certainly if you are going to a general adult "beginner" class especially up in London there will not be that much teaching given anyway. A lot of teachers just set a class and you do it sort of thing there is not that much discussion going on. However a few stand out and all I will say here is "needs must"

[Michelle_Richer]

Of course the 4^th position I mentioned was a stretched position, not only is it done in the centre for Port de Bras but also at the barre too, we often do this at Pineapple., particularly with back bends.

 

As for teaching the relationship of muscle group functions against specific movements, I never said or implied never just that it was only rarely mention. Lin I do think you are getting very pre occupied with the term “Adult Beginner”, most adults excluding me, have done ballet before, also most of my teachers but not all do teach RAD or ISTD and some both, that certainly does come through to the adult classes. I agree that often the teacher biases the class to the ability of the students. In the case of Pineapple you are expected to know what you are doing, its more about practice that learning and is generally not suitable for as you say it beginners.

 

Some of my adult ballet classes do have a progressive level structure, ENB with 4 levels 4^th being advanced, that does have a high progressive teaching content, but feedback is somewhat limited  by the size of the class unless you seek from your teacher. ROH have an Adult Beginner and an Intermediate too, needless to say this beginner does both as you would expect.  Sleaford has two levels too, Both Kings Lynn and Stamford when I approached them said their classes were not for beginners.

Conversely Nicky my local ballet teacher does from beginner level from the point of view that we only do a limited number of movements against other classes, but she is a stickler for technique and detail, and gives lots of feedback mainly to me as she sees her other dancers as its a bit of recreational fitness that’s not taken seriously, I’m just the odd ball.

But coming back to the question of using the correct muscles etc, I do remember on another thread asking the question on this forum about locating and exercising the illiopsoas for high extension of the leg, all I can say is the response was disappointing, when there are supposed to be many experts on this site. My impression is that this subject is not as well understood as its been implied.

 

PS I’m in my Hotel in Docklands now, already for LAB SI tomorrow, after lugging a heave suitcase, haversack and my very large handbag half way across London. Not every station has either an escalator or lift, so I think my workout doing Plie’s carrying an extra 20Kg of weights has paid off, I definitely could not have done this a year ago.

[Anna C]

There were 20 replies on that thread Michelle; not exactly disappointing. :-) http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/3298-sq-help-accessing-and-developing-the-iliopsoas/?hl=iliopsoas

 

We are fortunate to have teachers who kindly post on this site and share their expertise in their spare time.

[LinMM]

This was on before I joined in April so have missed this and it is interesting and important muscles for anyone doing ballet.

Have been looking at the links. I have trouble with this on the left side so exercises may be helpful. Have been given some by osteopath which have been very good and it's not playing up at mo.

 

Because dancers are doing a lot of tricky things with their legs it is easy to get over involved with the lower half of the body and neglect the importance of the upper body. All the feeling for dance will come from the upper body in the end. So, and sorry Michelle here is the dreaded "adult beginners " advice again, I think teachers teaching Adult beginners should give a lot of emphasis on the upper body initially. Who cares how high you can lift your leg (if doing ballet of course) if you can't stand up straight with it!! I think Ive said this before but it's better to get the deportment right and work with good line just pushing the turnout slowly as you progress in strength and have a lower leg than a higher leg with the body semi collapsed. Doing sustained things like developpe takes a lot of strength from the core and back muscles as well as supporting leg muscles. I say all this while probably struggling to follow my own advice but getting pulled up right into the upper back is no easy thing and just when you think you've got your shoulders nicely down you catch sight of yourself in the mirror and realise you haven't ......the shoulders are not connecting into the centre back muscles enough to get that lovely upper back you see in more professional dancers. It really all does take TIME. And cannot be RUSHED. One has to be a bit patient for all the ballet to be really integrated into the body as a whole.

Now if an adult has done some ballet before and built up some feeling for it then of course it will be easier to pick up later on and progress more quickly with class levels as the basics may have already been integrated into the body. I am assuming this is what Balletteacher means by a house cannot be built without firm foundations etc.

 

Sounds like you've got a good teacher in that Nicky Michelle.

[Thecatsmother]

Absolutely LinMM. It's so hard as a teacher to know where to start if the basic foundations are not there. My heart sinks when I am faced with students who it is clear have been pushed too fast. It is far easier to help students if they have good basic technique as then it is a case of building rather than trying to demolish and rebuild.

It's a really tough issue as a teacher in terms of wanting to instill confidence but at the same time ensuring that students are working at the right level for them. If it's too hard and the technique is not there; dancers put themselves at greater risk of injury and can end up acquiring more and more bad habits often due to lack of understanding.

I am of the opinion that it is good for all dancers to sometimes take an easier class so the focus can shift back to basic technique and not get distracted by the complexity of exercises. I do this myself as it gives me space and time to focus on the basics. I still have much to learn despite dancing since 2.5 years.

[LinMM]

I agree about having a more basic class in the mix of classes somewhere. My class levels at mo are from roughly grade 5 - to intermediate foundation. The grade 5 level (not a syllabus class strictly) is basic for me and I can really work at the barre in a very focussed way at this level. I do a more strict syllabus BBO grade 6 class and this is pretty okay too. The intermediate foundation is more of a challenge.....as some of the more sustained exercises.....introduction of grande ronde de jambe and longer ronde de jambe en L'air exercise which I could do when younger I find really make me sweat!! Also I know this should be done at 90 which I cannot do so just have to work with lower leg height. In fact just recently I have been noticing the point more and more when any sag starts in the back and so have made the decision to keep the back position rather than force any leg height and work instead for a stronger extension at lower height etc. Also at this level there are more beaten jumps which I haven't sufficient strength at mo but its okay in the class because a few of us do an assemble say rather than a brisee for example. What I get out of this class is the chance to do a bit more true "dancing" which I enjoy as I am not a complete beginner as an adult.

This is also true of my Russian class. This is not a graded class but is moving towards an intermediate level and has some lovely centre work....I just have to be careful with the jumps and know that in adage I have my own goals and don't compare to others. The teacher here is very adaptive as there is a wide range of ability in the class including ex professional dancers, dance teachers, potential and actual vocational students and then the returners like me who have done some ballet when younger and have taken up again. For us the teacher will adapt (often only marginally needed eg 3 pose turns instead of 6 that sort of thing) and suggest not to do on demi etc (certain exercises at the barre) She is very supportive of each individual's efforts for their particular ability. I love this class particularly because of the emphasis on the upper body too.

So that's four regular a week and enough for me!! But in that basic class I sometimes feel I have really worked the hardest...at the barre at least because I'm not worried trying to remember combinations or changes of direction etc so can just focus on basic technique which has its own satisfaction.

One thing lucky here that none of my classes has more than 8-16 students. So no overcrowding trying to get in a group when some people are putting themselves in all,the groups but then no hiding either!!

[Michelle_Richer]

 

Sounds like you've got a good teacher in that Nicky Michelle.

Yes she is, but never the less she is unable to satisfy my appetite to dance.

 

I guess I will never ever be seen as part of this ballet community, as I will never have the years in front of me to take the traditional route of formal ballet training that most have done as youngsters. But what the heck, I’m a fast tracker and it my intention to choreograph, dance and perform and not just to attend classes to get me out of the house for a bit of social contact. Admittedly I have to work within the confines of my own body, mind and ability. But the more important question for me, is how will I come to terms when my own body fails me as I get older which it undoubtedly will, it just isn’t in my mind set. That is just too aweful to comprehend.

[LinMM]

Well Michelle don't worry too much just yet there is a lady in one class I go to who is in her seventies!! She did used to be a dancer by profession but then not all people who used to be professional dancers can still dance....albeit not professionally any more.

You never can be sure how Life will treat you in the end. Who knows why some people live to be 100 with reasonably good faculties and others who seemed and looked in good health suddenly go at 65 like my closest friend last week.

So I'm all for going for Life while you can at any age really but more so after 60 because not everybody gets their 3 score years and 10.

 

Anyway while your body is NOT failing you, you can work for improving your ballet and performing just as you are doing this week at LAB.

As for the not having the years in front of you like a youngster thing...that's just reality! If I took up the piano tomorrow no matter how hard and often I practiced I wouldn't expect to be passing my grade 8 any day soon or be the next Alfred Brendel but I would expect after a few years to get good enough to play some quite nice things even touch on a bit of Beethoven maybe but just not be able to qualify as a professional or play like him!! It doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to play the piano though. I see this the same for ballet.

None of us relishes the thought of our bodies (or minds) failing us though so you are in good company!

 

Look forward to hearing how it goes tomorrow at LAB

[Anna C]

My body started to fail me in my 20s Michelle - you adapt because it's a choice of cope or go bonkers.

 

I am sure if and when ballet becomes a physical impossibility, you would cope by learning a new art form. :-)

[Regattah]

Really sorry to hear about your friend, Lin.

[LinMM]

Thanks Regattah.....luckily I spent a week with her in May. All family and friends are in shock still.

 

S and P sorry to see you have had to have so many ops....have been reading the psoas muscle thread from March and saw it there.

Hope you've had some improvement. Ive had trouble with this recently again from an old injury and at its worse I cannot do a retiree or keep my leg in second position on the left side for any length of time. It's really strange though how it just suddenly seems to go and I don't get any trouble for months even as long as 18 months (as this time) It hangs around for 2-3 weeks when it starts up but can never relate it to any specific action Ive done so must be a muscle stress related thing.

Michelle

There are less body stress forms of dance than ballet you can do when body starts playing up too much like Eurythmy, 5 rhythms, Feldenkreis movement.....even some forms of national dancing are not too vigorous for the girls. The slower forms of Indian like Orissi though you would still have to be able to bend your knees!!

However lots of people take up an instrument or paint etc but.....hey that's down the line it's keep on with the ballet at the moment.....what happened at LAB today?

...

[LinMM]

Sorry meant Odissi....Indian dance

[Anna C]

:-) No dancing for me Lin, which is a shame as I'd have loved to have learned ballet. My spinal nerves had been slightly damaged for many years and were then very badly damaged by one of my surgeries. In the intervening years they didn't repair and the damage and resulting symptoms are permanent.

 

However I am enjoying the reports of the LAB SI so keep them coming folks!

[LittleBlossom]

I am enjoying reading your experiences in ballet Michelle, very interesting!

I would like to add that I think you are very lucky to have the capabilites and the finances to be able to do so many classes per week.

I am 20 and have done ballet for a number of years, I have 2 private lessons a week not because I haven't the physical capabilites but because I suffer with Aspergers Syndrome and severe anxieties, so I can't go into a ballet class as I don't do well in crowds and it is to much for me.

 

I would like you to realise how lucky you are and I wish you all the success in your ballet training.

[LinMM]

LittleBlossom if you found a ballet friend could you cope with just two people in a lesson.

 

I say this because even with just two you can create some nice dancing together(dancing opposite each other in the centre for example or coming from opposite corners when doing turns. This all helps to make it a bit more fun at times.

[LinMM]

S and P you make me feel so fortunate having more or less full range of movement. Not that you would necessarily want to do it but is Tai Chi a possibility for you? This is very gentle and does have some balletic aspects to it. It must be great to have a DD and to follow her progress at least (I have no children.....the misfortune Ive had.....though some may say differently on a difficult day!!!)

[Anna C]

Tai Chi does look lovely, very gentle. Trouble is my left leg won't take weight and sitting is very painful so unless I can do an exercise laying on a bed it's a no-no (and no rude answers about bed-based exercises) ;-)

[Jan McNulty]

I can remember reading articles by Maria Fay in the Dancing Times about "floor barre" exercises that were developed to help rehabilitate dancers.  I've just googled and loads of information comes up.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&q=ballet+floor+barre+exercises&oq=ballet+floor&gs_l=hp.1.2.0l4.2988.8190.0.11226.12.10.0.2.2.0.426.1535.5j2j2j0j1.10.0....0...1c.1.23.psy-ab..0.12.1476.qKIAbFj8oI0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.49967636,d.d2k&fp=346abcfb51db05ae&biw=1366&bih=580

 

I'm not, and never have been, a dancer (something to do with having 2 left feet and no sense of rhythm or timing whatsoever!) but it's amazing what I have learnt through reading the Doing Dance Forum!

[LinMM]

Janet thanks for above.....have just posted it into,a new thread just started for someone who can only get to one class a week and wants something to do between classes so useful already!!

[LittleBlossom]

LittleBlossom if you found a ballet friend could you cope with just two people in a lesson.

 

I say this because even with just two you can create some nice dancing together(dancing opposite each other in the centre for example or coming from opposite corners when doing turns. This all helps to make it a bit more fun at times.

No I don't have any friends as social interaction is very hard for me unfortunately.

[Michelle_Richer]

Thank you Little Blossom for you Kind Wishes, yes I have had my share of good luck but determination also plays a part in ones future.

 

Lin: ENB has been a rubbish night for Pirouettes, I think most of us have done rather badly, the floor in the upper studio tonight was very sticky, that one has been OK previously.

 

The plot thickens on the Fourth position, I ask my teacher what position she was in, It was fourth opposite third, for those that cant get into fifth, so where do you draw the line on grand plie’s with the heels off?

Edited July 30, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[LinMM]

Tricky one Michelle not sure about this. At some point today I'll try experimenting!! There's probably a point across the body at which the angle is not sufficient to do a deep enough plié with the heels still on the floor as in open 4th.

People often work using 3rd position generally for quite a while before 5th is introduced because strictly speaking the turnout has to be good enough to use 5th well and as turnout comes largely from the hips rather than just feet(though they do have a role) this takes a while for the muscles to become strong enough to hold the turnout sufficiently to work with.

 

I'm not sure what position I'm using at the moment.....probably somewhere between 3rd and 5th if I was honest! But for pliés I do try to bring the front leg out from the big toe area so crossed.....but what happens if you don't watch it is that the BACK leg isn't really turned out that well when you go into the plié even if the front one is okay.....that's why this one is the most difficult to do for more beginners...it's the old turnout again!! Personally I hate doing pliés in 4th on the whole!!

 

LittleBlossom how did you get interested in ballet.....was it from going to see a performance?

[LittleBlossom]

Hi LinMM,

I got interested in ballet when I went to my first performance when I was 10 years old, it was such an escape for me I just fell in love with it completely.

[LinMM]

Michelle

Ive experimented with this 4th position plié thing.....it seems that once you are anywhere past being opposite the heel across the body you would need to take the heels off the floor so definitely from third position! I was surprised not having done it for a while just how open that 4th has to be to keep the heels on the floor. It was easier with the front heel a bit out towards the right of the line from first position so almost on a diagonal from first but not quite!! So pliés in 4th opposite third....heels off!

 

LittleBlossom have you managed to get to see a performance more recently?

[Michelle_Richer]

I came across another interesting move at my ENB class on Tuesday evening; it appears not to have a proper name that my teacher knew of. She described it as a balance pas de char, it is a bit of both. The best way I can describe it, imagine stepping out on a pointed left leg and swishing the right leg through as if to jump as in a balance, then using the pas de char action of the left leg only, then landing with the right leg straight and the left in fondu, right arm will be pointing virtually to the right foot and the left arm in the air forming a straight line with the right.

 

Managed to move out of Docklands this morning after LAB SI, ready to start the City Academy 2 day workshop on Swan Lake at Sadlers Wells, I set out early as I was unsure about the Northern line but it was open. There are 10 girls in the class including me, and no guys, today we did “Entrance of Odette” and “Entrance of the Swans”. It looks as if we will have a mini performance tomorrow for some of the girls families as we were all asked if we minded spectators coming in. The course is enjoyable but not in the same league as LAB SI, but then it has addition to LAB SI too. We are also able to video what we are doing, our teacher didn’t like to be videoed on her own, so half the class dance with he for the first shoot and the other half for the second.

[LinMM]

I'm not sure if I am visualising the correct step but I believe it does have a set name and Ive mainly seen done by male dancers.But I may not have the step you are talking about as I would see this as part of a jump step and the one you seem to be describing doesn't seem to be that jumpy!! There is a sort of pas de chat step which is very fast but where you start as for a normal pas de chat but then throw the legs forward so that you land together on both feet. The one you are describing may be a little different to that. This is quite an advanced step the one I'm thinking of anyway.

[Thecatsmother]

There is a step which has a range of names in ballet terminology which can be called a 'Balanchine' pas de chat?

[LinMM]

Thanks for that. I'm not sure that the landing is on both feet simultaneously but it's fast enough to appear that way whereas the pas de chat as learned in the RAD grades etc clearly lands on one foot after the other even if this is quite fast too sometimes but the legs are not thrown forward in an extension before the landing. I thought this might be a "Russian" step as Ive not seen it done that often.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

I really don’t know if it has any Russian origin, but its definitely not a Russian Pas de Char as that’s done at the back, we were doing them at LAB SI.

 

We finished the City Academy workshop today with Cygnet dance and Odette’s solo then we had to perform everything from both days to a small audience (Friends and family) , unfortunately a couple of girls developed foot problems during the course, mine ached but that was not something new. It's Chelsea ballet Summer School tomorrow.