aileen Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 From reading some of the articles referred to in the Links section I gather that RNZB is haemorrhaging dancers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromthebalcony Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 15 minutes ago, bridiem said: I have no idea what is happening at ENB. But a few comments about what Charlotte Macmillan says: citing 'you can't please all of the people all of the time' is a time-honoured way of dismissing any negative views about anything, regardless of any justification there may be in them since Kenneth Macmillan's directorship of the RB ended more than 40 years ago, Charlotte Macmillan would have been about 3 at the time of any voting about this issue to dismiss dancers as 'infantilised adults' is grossly offensive to talented individuals who work in very demanding circumstances any abuse of power that may or may not be happening is for others to decide on. It is not, in my view, appropriate for Charlotte Macmillan to seek to close down any such discussion I am not saying I agree with it, just found it interesting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Also interesting is Graham Watts' use of "feel free to share" and (notably) "Discuss" at the end of his lengthy Facebook post, when actually the only "discussion" he appears to want is agreement. When his (IMO) disparaging comments about the ENB company dancers/"sources" are challenged, he doesn't like it one bit. Why demand that people discuss an issue when actually all you want is agreement? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 I'm quite surprised that Graham Watts has come out so strongly in defence of Tamara Rojo in this way. He seems to have close connections with the company and must know many of the dancers well, particularly those who have been with company for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Have read the comments and agree with Anna C, it was terribly sycophantic, but he later claims to have links with thirteen companies, does the include ENB, if so the accusation that he may have been prompted to write his drivel by management sounds valid. ENB was most emphatically not inferior five years ago and I agree 100% with lovely Ian Palmer that it is a lesser place now for losing Elena Glurjidze. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 1 hour ago, MAB said: Have read the comments and agree with Anna C, it was terribly sycophantic, but he later claims to have links with thirteen companies, does the include ENB, if so the accusation that he may have been prompted to write his drivel by management sounds valid. Yesterday, in the Facebook thread following his original post Graham Watts said "I am commissioned by many in the dance world (13 organisations according to my latest tax return but not, I hasten to add, ENB)." Perhaps you should have read it more carefully before posting. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 54 minutes ago, John Mallinson said: Yesterday, in the Facebook thread following his original post Graham Watts said "I am commissioned by many in the dance world (13 organisations according to my latest tax return but not, I hasten to add, ENB)." Perhaps you should have read it more carefully before posting. Thank you for the correction, I went to the eye clinic earlier, things are still terribly blurred. Can you tell me exactly what this Graham Watts person actually does? He clearly isn't a dancer, why is he so contemptuous of them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Trust the eye problem is temporary. Graham Watts is a critic, also Chair of the Dance Section of the Critics' Circle. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 The Arts Council is said to have shown an interest: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/english-national-ballet-must-investigate-abuse-claims-5d86zx8vn?shareToken=5251eb63809acb118ee29f2adbc25ca4 Nothing new in the report otherwise that I can see. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletfanp Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 An investigation certainly needs to take place. But it needs to be by an external body with no connection to ENB and the results made public. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 This is beginning to look rather serious now that the Arts Council has asked the ENB to investigate all allegations against its leadership. Rightly so I think. ENB receives £6.2 million a year of tax payer money so they have a duty to objectively and impartially report back to those who fund them but (and I agree with the above post) what good is it that the investigation is conducted by the ENB management? This surely should be done by an independent body. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josephine Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 19 minutes ago, Balletfanp said: An investigation certainly needs to take place. But it needs to be by an external body with no connection to ENB and the results made public. An external review is the route taken by Royal New Zealand Ballet according to the press feature linked below. I appreciate that there are differences in scenario and cultural context between the apparent situations at ENB and RNZB. However if the respective press coverage by The Times and Stuff NZ is accurate then both situations appear to involve employees' concerns about ineffective internal reporting procedures. https://i.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/stage-and-theatre/100630053/jacinda-ardern-holds-crisis-meeting-with-royal-new-zealand-ballet?utm_content=buffer6e225&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 ACAS surely, or would they only investigate if a specific complaint has been made to them directly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Are dancers in this country still members of Equity? If so, I wonder if they have been involved at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, Sim said: Are dancers in this country still members of Equity? If so, I wonder if they have been involved at all. Yes, I think that dancers are members of Equity. I declared myself earlier to be a great supporter of ENB. However, I have concerns about an internal investigation - anywhere, not just at ENB. An external, independent investigation would better enable all the parties involved to speak freely and recommendations to be made as to what needs to be done to resolve any issues. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, capybara said: Yes, I think that dancers are members of Equity. I declared myself earlier to be a great supporter of ENB. However, I have concerns about an internal investigation - anywhere, not just at ENB. An external, independent investigation would better enable all the parties involved to speak freely and recommendations to be made as to what needs to be done to resolve any issues. Completely agree. I don't think that those who do have complaints would feel that an investigation by ENB management would give them a fair hearing, no matter how much they are assured it would be otherwise. I would like to think that the AC has asked ENB to investigate, and ENB will investigate by appointing an external, neutral body to carry out such an investigation to try to sort out any problems that may exist. Perceptions are different on either side, so an independent body would hopefully be able to see both sides and sort it out. If nothing else, it should make any complainants feel that their grievances are being taken seriously and that they are more than vindictive, mischievous, infantilised adults who are creating problems just for the sake of it. If someone has a problem, it is a problem, even if the other side don't think so, and that is where good management comes in. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sim said: I don't think that those who do have complaints would feel that an investigation by ENB management would give them a fair hearing, no matter how much they are assured it would be otherwise. I would like to think that the AC has asked ENB to investigate, and ENB will investigate by appointing an external, neutral body to carry out such an investigation to try to sort out any problems that may exist. Perceptions are different on either side, so an independent body would hopefully be able to see both sides and sort it out. If nothing else, it should make any complainants feel that their grievances are being taken seriously and that they are more than vindictive, mischievous, infantilised adults who are creating problems just for the sake of it. If someone has a problem, it is a problem, even if the other side don't think so, and that is where good management comes in. Very true, Sim. I would not be surprised if individual dancers or others who felt themselves disadvantaged in any significant way had not raised their concerns with Equity (either through their Company rep or directly to a Union spokesperson) if the report that launched this particular strand is correct. Myself, I am somewhat surprised that the Arts Council itself did not extract a small portion from the next annual allotment of annual core funding to ENB in order that they themselves might appoint an external/independent evaluator to cover the concerns raised. To put it back in the hands of the ENB management will - unfairly I think - put at least some 'one' - if not a team of people, e.g., the Trustees - indeed all currently employed under that noble banner - in a potentially difficult situation from the very get-go. Edited January 30, 2018 by Bruce Wall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bruce Wall said: Myself, I am somewhat surprised that the Arts Council itself did not extract a small portion from the next annual allotment of annual core funding to ENB in order that they themselves might appoint an external/independent evaluator to cover the concerns raised. Would ACE be allowed to do that Bruce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) I believe they would given the nature of the situations raised. Certainly where there are concerns raised about any Charity the Charities Commission have independent arbitrators who are brought in to deal with such concerns, e.g., leadership and/or any ethical workplace concerns, etc. That I do know for a fact ... and that too might have been another route given that ENB itself is a registered charity. Edited January 30, 2018 by Bruce Wall 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Lin Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I have a theory, based on nothing but instinct and maybe invalid, that great "star" dancers often make very poor artistic directors. One reason is that they were big stars, and probably spent the bulk of their career getting their way. If they came to company class people stepped aside. If there was a big premiere they expected to be cast. And most of them have/had a natural, prodigious talent that carried them far. When you run a company the ball-game changes. Not everyone in the company is going to be super-talented, and you have to negotiate with the labor unions, you have to do budgeting, you have to fund-raise. A lot of busy paperwork. IMO stars rarely have the temperament to be able to do all of that. Many get frustrated and try to fire most of the company. Few can truly put their stardom aside to deal with all the moving parts that running a company entails. People tend to glorify the Nureyev years at POB now because of all the talent he spotted and the high profile he gave the company. But he ran the company for less than six years and was in constant conflict with the dancers. He also left the company often to do guest dancing appearances. Mikhail Baryshnikov's years at ABT were also marked by constant tension with the dancers, high turnover, and some financial problems. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 There is a correlation with football (soccer) too....and many other sports. Just because you were a great player doesn't mean you will be a great, or even good, manager. Some are, some aren't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 26 minutes ago, Bruce Wall said: To put it back in the hands of the ENB management will - unfairly I think - put at least some 'one' - if not a team of people, e.g., the Trustees - indeed all currently employed under that noble banner - in a potentially difficult situation from the very get-go. Yes, and I am speaking generally here but from personal experience as a Trustee, vested interests and self-protection can easily get in the way unless an investigation is not only independent but also commissioned from outside an organisation. It is fairer to Board members, managers and employees alike if the investigators have no prior connections with the body they are looking at. The Arts Council has got it wrong, I'm afraid. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 But in my experience it is normal in such situations for any regulator to first of all ask the organisation concerned to provide its own report/account/ whatever- before they think about setting up an external investigation. It is after all, a reasonable courtesy to give them a right to reply first. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, Mary said: But in my experience it is normal in such situations for any regulator to first of all ask the organisation concerned to provide its own report/account/ whatever- before they think about setting up an external investigation. It is after all, a reasonable courtesy to give them a right to reply first. Yes, it is normal (and properly courteous) for a funding body to seek a report from an organisation as a first step. But the implication here is that ENB has been asked to investigate itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Lin Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 31 minutes ago, Sim said: There is a correlation with football (soccer) too....and many other sports. Just because you were a great player doesn't mean you will be a great, or even good, manager. Some are, some aren't. In the U.S. the same thing goes for basketball/football players who become managers. Michael Jordan -- possibly the G.O.A.T. basketball player having a horrible time of it managing the Charlotte Bobcats. Isiah Thomas also a great player, ruins every team he touches. The best basketball coach of all time was probably Phil Jackson, who was a middling NBA player. People often marveled at his ability to deal with some of the most difficult, egotistical characters in the NBA, and also get the best out of players who on the surface were nothing special. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 43 minutes ago, Ivy Lin said: People tend to glorify the Nureyev years at POB now because of all the talent he spotted and the high profile he gave the company. But he ran the company for less than six years and was in constant conflict with the dancers. He also left the company often to do guest dancing appearances. You're quite right, but I think they glorify him now because he stayed true to their classical roots. In the following years the accent at POB is very much on modern work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, capybara said: Yes, it is normal (and properly courteous) for a funding body to seek a report from an organisation as a first step. But the implication here is that ENB has been asked to investigate itself. I think it's the word 'investigate' in the article that is rather misleading. it would be very odd indeed for a fully fledged external investigation to be launched immediately on the basis of a newspaper article, surely and not what any reasonable person would want to be the norm. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Exactly....which makes me believe that this expose in The Times was perhaps a last-ditch resort; I am sure that these grievances have been being aired for a while but nothing has been done about them. ENB would certainly not be the first organisation to ignore complaints from their staff (IF that is what they've done). 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromthebalcony Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 59 minutes ago, Ivy Lin said: In the U.S. the same thing goes for basketball/football players who become managers. Michael Jordan -- possibly the G.O.A.T. basketball player having a horrible time of it managing the Charlotte Bobcats. Isiah Thomas also a great player, ruins every team he touches. The best basketball coach of all time was probably Phil Jackson, who was a middling NBA player. People often marveled at his ability to deal with some of the most difficult, egotistical characters in the NBA, and also get the best out of players who on the surface were nothing special. I believe that Helgi Tomasson, although maybe not the same "star" calibre of Nureyev, was a successful dancer and current director. The same goes for Peter Boal. Although Peter Martins has had his problems, which we have discussed, he was both a star dancer and a successful director in terms of running the company. Lourdes Lopez and Angel Corella have yet to be judged in totality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Mary said: But in my experience it is normal in such situations for any regulator to first of all ask the organisation concerned to provide its own report/account/ whatever- before they think about setting up an external investigation. It is after all, a reasonable courtesy to give them a right to reply first. That was my reading of ACE's reported wording (“establish whether they [ENB] will be launching an appropriate investigation”). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Wall Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, fromthebalcony said: I believe that Helgi Tomasson, although maybe not the same "star" calibre of Nureyev, was a successful dancer and current director. The same goes for Peter Boal. Although Peter Martins has had his problems, which we have discussed, he was both a star dancer and a successful director in terms of running the company. Lourdes Lopez and Angel Corella have yet to be judged in totality. There are I think many ex-NYCB dancers who fall into this category. Susanne Farrell, of course, ran the Company in her own name; Damian Woetzel made Vail blossom oh, so successfully, Tallchief founded and ran Chicago City Ballet; Patricia Wilde so successfully ran Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre, John Clifford with Los Angeles Ballet; Arthur Mitchell ran for a goodly number of years Dance Theatre of Harlem; the wonderful Patricia McBride and her husband - also an NYCB alumnae under Balanchine - Jean-Pierre Bonnefoux - STILL run Charlotte Ballet and of course Villella founded/ran and now Lopez (as mentioned) runs Miami City Ballet. There are I'm sure a goodly number of others and while there certainly have been challenges in some of these regimes they have I think all been reputed for bringing considerable quality to the period of their charge - one no doubt coloured by the example of their having worked directly with the Master himself - or in Woetzel's and the fabulous Boal's case - aside a vast many who were almost entirely under his generous charge. Edited January 30, 2018 by Bruce Wall 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Macmillan Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 The Stage is reporting that Arts Council England has met with ENB: https://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2018/arts-council-intervenes-claims-hostile-environment-english-national-ballet/ In a nutshell, each appears happy with the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Met with ENB? I thought the dancers were on holiday, does this mean met with ENB board? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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