Two Pigeons Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 3 hours ago, MAB said: Cruelty was his stock in trade particularly towards dancers of an earlier generation, just ask Margaret Barbieri or Wayne Eagling. And Marguerite Porter whom he slated each and every time she appeared. In her autobiography she refers to it all but also mentions that he sent her a fan letter after a performance of (I think) Juliet. He soon realised that he got more attention and coverage by ripping British dancers apart. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Somebody should have told him that it’s not about him. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 bravo is an interjection that has existed in English for over 200 years. It's just an interjection. Interjections don't need declensions. Any more than "tally-ho!" or "cheerio" does. "Tally-ha"? "Tally-hi"? "Tally-he"? "Cheery-ha"? etc... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zxDaveM Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 does it really make any difference unless the dancer is Italian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 26 minutes ago, zxDaveM said: does it really make any difference unless the dancer is Italian? even then it shouldn't make a difference. We are speaking ENGLISH. Bravo is an ENGLISH word. Just like pizza is an English word. Does anyone order "two pizze"? NOPE. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Are schadenfreude and intelligentsia English words too? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 55 minutes ago, toursenlair said: even then it shouldn't make a difference. We are speaking ENGLISH. Bravo is an ENGLISH word. Just like pizza is an English word. Does anyone order "two pizze"? NOPE. Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 54 minutes ago, MAB said: Are schadenfreude and intelligentsia English words too? Well they don't need to be explained or italicised when used and so have clearly been absorbed into the English language. Like ballerina. (And come to think of it, we don't say ballerine either... Not that I'm comparing them to pizze, you understand.) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 1 hour ago, toursenlair said: even then it shouldn't make a difference. We are speaking ENGLISH. Bravo is an ENGLISH word. Just like pizza is an English word. Does anyone order "two pizze"? NOPE. That's why Mozart's follow-up, Le Pizze di Figaro, sank like a stone. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 17 hours ago, MAB said: Are schadenfreude and intelligentsia English words too? of course they are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 From the Oxford English Dictionary: brava: A term of approbation addressed to a woman: excellent! well done! No entry in the OED for "bravi". First recorded use of "bravo" is 1761 and for "brava" it's 1803. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Since the debate's still going on, here's my reason for giving up on the different forms. It's a fair assumption that most of any audience in this country are familiar with the word "bravo". However if someone next to a casual ballet or opera goer starts using "brava" or "bravi", that might lead them to feel that they don't belong at (for example) ROH; that there's some special code of behaviour they don't measure up to. This reinforces those stereotypes which many of us on this forum and all the ballet companies fight so hard against. My understanding of good manners has always been that, in essence, they are about putting others at their ease (unless their behaviour merits otherwise of course!). I can't claim always to have lived up to that standard, but I'd rather Punter A thought poorly of me for not knowing my Italian endings (call me arrogant, but it's enough that I know I know them) than Punter B wondered if they really fitted in at the opera because of me. On all counts, Punter B is more worthy of my consideration. (Side note: I'm not really a shouter either - if I'm really pleased with something I'll go so far as to say something like "oh, bravo".) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 I'm not a shouter either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George C Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 For some time I have wished that someone had taught me to Woooop. I feel stupid if I try. Then again I often think that other people who Whoooop sound pretty stupid and am glad that I can’t. Soooo I just shout Bravo at anyone or anything that has I excited me .......then I feel stupid ! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Last night I went to see Les Vepres Siciliennes (a.k.a. I Vespri Siciliani or perhaps for those that prefer English, Sicilian Vespers) and very good it was too. The audience was very appreciative and, I hate to break this to some of you, responded with BRAVA for the lady, BRAVO for the gents and BRAVI when they all took a call together. Not altogether trusting my aging ears I asked my younger companion what he heard and he confirmed brava, bravo and bravi. I do wish more people would read ballet.co, realize how pretentious they are, and put a stop to these Italian declensions, I mean where will it all end? We'll be saying menu instead of list of dishes if we're not careful. As Father Ted used to say "Down with this sort of thing". 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 I am seeing Vespers next week and will make sure I bring the tone right down by yelping 'woooohoooo' at the end. And I'm half Italian!! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josephine Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Mr Crisp opts for 'bravos'!! https://www.ft.com/content/98708a74-b4af-11e7-a398-73d59db9e399 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Not really wanting to prolong the discussion, but isn't that because it's the plural of "bravo" (as a noun rather than an adjective)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assoluta Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) On 10/15/2017 at 02:46, Two Pigeons said: I remember during the 80s when I used to sit in the Amphitheatre and there was always one ostentatious, not to say pretentious, man who made a point of shouting out all the variations of Bravo depending on the number and gender of the artists he was applauding. A number of us used to call him 'The Bravo Man'. We found out not long afterwards that he was an aspiring critic who was doing everything he could to muscle in to that prestigious circle. His name was Alastair Macauley (I wonder whatever happened to him) and his actions have put me off yelling bravo in any of its variations ever since. I blushed when reading the first paragraph (I thought you meant me...), then I realized you meant a man, some 'Alastair Macaulay' (I don't know whether I should feel relieved or disappointed...) Edited October 30, 2017 by assoluta 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I'm feeling a little bit uneasy about the more personal comments on this thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveclassics Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 On 15/10/2017 at 15:41, zxDaveM said: That still happens now, though probably not as loudly as the past (fewer people probably know of its significance) I've heard it recently when Bolle's extremely well-dressed claque were at the ROH for his performance in Marguerite & Armand. Also Guillem's fan club were very heavy-footed at her last performances with the RB. Perhaps we Brits are just too reserved to emulate them? Linda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assoluta Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Why do you refer to them as claque? Maybe they are Bolle's groupies who travel wherever their idol performs? Ivan Vasilyev, Natalia Osipova, and a few other ballet stars have such devoted fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invisiblecircus Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 On 16/10/2017 at 21:19, toursenlair said: Does anyone order "two pizze"? NOPE. I do 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinMM Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 But aren't some words anglicised ...taken into our language but the usual endings in the country of origin don't apply So in UK we have anglicised Pizza so use the English plural ending which is "s" Two pizzas please!! Ive just learned that in Russian foreign words don't follow the same declensions as native Russian words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I do try very hard to avoid ordering two "paninis" - although I don't think I've ever gone as far as to ask for a "panino". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneMarriott Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 On 10/16/2017 at 20:19, toursenlair said: even then it shouldn't make a difference. We are speaking ENGLISH. Bravo is an ENGLISH word. Just like pizza is an English word. Does anyone order "two pizze"? NOPE. 10 hours ago, invisiblecircus said: I do Well, when in Rome (or Milan) ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveclassics Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 (edited) On 31/10/2017 at 04:13, assoluta said: Why do you refer to them as claque? Maybe they are Bolle's groupies who travel wherever their idol performs? Ivan Vasilyev, Natalia Osipova, and a few other ballet stars have such devoted fans. I thought a claque was a group whose function was to follow the star to all his/her performances and applaud with wild enthusiasm - exactly what this group was doing. My more knowledgable companion said she saw it all over Europe wherever he appeared. It wasn't intended as an insult even though I thought his performance on this occasion was not as good as I have seen in the past. Certainly Guillem's followers were very organised and indulged in synchronised stamping which made me nervous for the stability of the gallery! Linda Edited November 3, 2017 by loveclassics Grammar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, loveclassics said: I thought a claque was a group whose function was to follow the star to all his/her performances and applaud with wild enthusiasm - exactly what this group was doing. My more knowledgable companion said she saw it all over Europe wherever he appeared. It wasn't intended as an insult even though I thought his performance on this occasion was not as good as I have seen in the past. Certainly Guillem's followers were very organised and indulged in synchronised stamping which made me nervous for the stability of the gallery! Linda Confusion arises from two different meanings. It depends whether the word claque is used to describe those who follow a performer from place to place, or (as I would use the word) are resident in a particular auditorium (eg the Bolshoi, as discussed in the past on this board) and provide positive but sometimes also negative commentary, possibly for payment or other reward. To quote: 1. a group of sycophantic followers. 2. a group of people hired to applaud (or heckle) a performer or public speaker Edited November 4, 2017 by Geoff 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 15 hours ago, Geoff said: Confusion arises from two different meanings. It depends whether the word claque is used to describe those who follow a performer from place to place, or (as I would use the word) are resident in a particular auditorium (eg the Bolshoi, as discussed in the past on this board) and provide positive but sometimes also negative commentary, possibly for payment or other reward. To quote: 1. a group of sycophantic followers. 2. a group of people hired to applaud (or heckle) a performer or public speaker You are misreading the definitions. Ballet fans who follow their favourite dancer around are not "sycophantic followers", they are just fans. Sycophantic is a very strongly negative word. Typical examples of this meaning of "claque", which is an extension of sense 2 (the earlier sense) are: ‘the President was surrounded by a claque of scheming bureaucrats’ ‘How on earth could we have put this scheming, mendacious little man and his miserable claque back in office for another three years?’ ‘He got clapped and cheered by the audience, or at least by the noisy loyalist claque who are dotted about the hall.’ ‘In even earlier times, politicians - even party leaders - used to address open public meetings in their election campaigns, not just carefully screened, ticket-only claques.’ ‘And let us not forget the chilling spectacle of that State of the Union address, with the claque and brass popping up with applause at every stumbling word like so many automatons at a court masque for their Sun King.’ ‘Still, with a sycophantic media claque in close support, his is the dominant voice in public discourse.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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